Any Episcopalians in the house?

[Picky_Picky]

Missed this.

His argument that Julius’ dispensation was contrary to the Levetical prohibition was that that was jus divinum, not Church law, and thus it was ultra vires, even for a papal dispensation.

It was not a particularly strong causa, but it was average for the sort of thing, in the day. There was a stronger argument in an undispensed impediment of the public honesty, but he refused Wolsey’s advice on that. It wouldn’t have made any difference.

GKC

Thank you. One thing I don’t understand (there are many) is how Henry can have asked for the Katherine dispensation to be set aside while asking for another, similar, dispensation over Anne and Mary Boleyn. Have I got that right?

 

[commenter]

And even more ironically, had C.S. Lewis been a RC, when he was faced with marrying Joy Davidman, the process of seeking a decree of nullity with respect to Joy’s marriage to William Gresham, he would have had a road to take, based on Gresham’s preexisting marriage to another, when he wed her. The CoE, 60 years ago, had no such path for him to take.

Things change.

GKC

60 years later, perhaps the C of E, and definitely the TEC, have, not a path but a wide, paved highway. In my American city, the local Episcopal bishop has publicly lamented the number of clergy divorces.

 

[GKC]

60 years later, perhaps the C of E, and definitely the TEC, have, not a path but a wide, paved highway. In my American city, the local Episcopal bishop has publicly lamented the number of clergy divorces.

Yep.

GKC

 

[SyroMalankara]

In my American city, the local Episcopal bishop has publicly lamented the number of clergy divorces.

At least there is a lament by your Episcopal bishop, some of them are themselves divorced twice (and/or remarried to same gender… or with live-in boyfriends/girlfriends)

 

[SyroMalankara]

1. This is the poorest example, since the pagan clergy couple were defrocked and are no longer Episcopalians.

Edwin

Oh really, this doesn’t seem like a defrocked Episcopalian:
stfrancisfields.com/from-the-rector/

Not only was her husband Bill not defrocked not even suspended, he at first ‘repented’ his paganism, then a month later ‘repented’ his 'forced letter of ‘recantation’ and denounced his episcopalian ordination.

 

[GKC]

Thank you. One thing I don’t understand (there are many) is how Henry can have asked for the Katherine dispensation to be set aside while asking for another, similar, dispensation over Anne and Mary Boleyn. Have I got that right?

Yes, though he didn’t name them, just described the situation. The difference was between the nature of the impediments involved. In the case of Julius/Katherine/Henry, it was held in Henry’s Causa that the impediment was not dispensable, being of Divine Law, not Canonical law. Such impediments exist; it is not possible to dispense an impediment of consanguinity in the first degree direct, and permit a marriage between a parent and his/her child. The nature of the impediment of the Levitical prohibition had been viewed in a number of ways, over the years, in that interesting mix of stuff called history. The current contemporary view held it to be diriment and dispensable, against Henry’s case.

What Henry asked for in his request to be dispensed from any impediment arising from pre-marrige sexual dalliance was a less strenuous impediment of affinity, and was certainly dispensable, in theory. It was how the system worked, and how it was designed to work, to keep society functioning, while still allowing Church control of the sacrament of matrimony.

GKC

 

[sailor28]

"But I personally would find it difficult to give my assent to many doctrines that I just don’t believe in such as the doctrine that only men can be ordained. To me, 2000 years of doctrine and tradition starts to look like a straight jacket that prevents us from seeing and understanding God in new ways and ends up putting God into a box. "

I echo your thoughts Thorolfr.

I am Catholic but the older I get the less my conscience is comfortable with the conflicts the Catholic church creates for it. I can not continue to violate my conscience when I believe doctrines and teachings the church embraces are not healthy or whole. It goes beyond female ordination. I believe the church has done spiritual and emotional damage to gay individuals. The black and white embracing on the ban on contraception is not sound theology. I also don’t believe in infallibility. For me, it is not a matter of more catechesis. I have had more catechesis as an adult. Always learning and studying trying to accept it but I can not accept it. In fact, I believe the church has serious problems with its understanding of human sexuality. I have not figured out how to reconcile this and remain Catholic. I am probably more of an Episcopalian. But I do see the church is very broad and wide and I believe there is room for more than we may think.

Just stopping in this thread for a moment. I’ll have to come back and read the rest when I have time.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Yes, though he didn’t name them, just described the situation. The difference was between the nature of the impediments involved. In the case of Julius/Katherine/Henry, it was held in Henry’s Causa that the impediment was not dispensable, being of Divine Law, not Canonical law. Such impediments exist; it is not possible to dispense an impediment of consanguinity in the first degree direct, and permit a marriage between a parent and his/her child. The nature of the impediment of the Levitical prohibition had been viewed in a number of ways, over the years, in that interesting mix of stuff called history. The current contemporary view held it to be diriment and dispensable, against Henry’s case.

What Henry asked for in his request to be dispensed from any impediment arising from pre-marrige sexual dalliance was a less strenuous impediment of affinity, and was certainly dispensable, in theory. It was how the system worked, and how it was designed to work, to keep society functioning, while still allowing Church control of the sacrament of matrimony.

GKC

Ta.

 

[Abu]

sailor28 #284
I am Catholic but the older I get the less my conscience is comfortable with the conflicts the Catholic church creates for it. I can not continue to violate my conscience when I believe doctrines and teachings the church embraces are not healthy or whole. It goes beyond female ordination. I believe the church has done spiritual and emotional damage to gay individuals. The black and white embracing on the ban on contraception is not sound theology. I also don’t believe in infallibility. For me, it is not a matter of more catechesis. I have had more catechesis as an adult. Always learning and studying trying to accept it but I can not accept it. In fact, I believe the church has serious problems with its understanding of human sexuality. I have not figured out how to reconcile this and remain Catholic.

But I do see the church is very broad and wide and I believe there is room for more than we may think.

This fantasy of “violation of conscience” is a recurring theme of yours.

There is no “violation of conscience” against truth when the conscience has been badly formed – its formation needs to be put right. There is certain violation when it is properly formed and you freely go against it.

So, since conscience is not a god, but a judgment of the practical reason as Msgr Cormac P Burke (Law and Dissent, 1985) points out, "for the Catholic, there is never a conflict between the authority of the Church and conscience, because belief that Christ has given His Church authority to teach without error is part of his conscience, freely accepted. According to Canon 205, Catholics are those in full communion with the Church through the bonds of profession of faith, the sacraments and ecclesiastical governance.

"If one holds a personal opinion that a particular course of action seems licit – contrary to the Church’s teaching – he has a conflict within his own conscience. This is doubt or rejection of the divine guarantees of the certainty of the truths already present in his mind, to accommodate a contrary opinion. We now have a house divided against itself.

"He cannot escape the conclusion that his contrary opinion must be mistaken, as he would be acknowledging the accepted fact of the fallibility of conscience – it does not make truth. He then has to see where he has been mistaken, to reflect more deeply on the arguments for the Church’s teaching. If he feels that he is not mistaken, then he must conclude that Christ’s Church is mistaken and naturally his faith in Christ and His Church has started to collapse.

“He has no grounds then to believe in any truths – the sacraments (especially the Eucharist), or in Her worship or any other aspect of Her life. Such a Catholic needs the counsel of a faithful priest.”

Thus no one can in good conscience deny Christ’s authority as taught by His Magisterium in dogma or doctrine. That mandate from Christ means that those that do have tarnished their Catholicity and lost the respect of real Catholics.

 

[Contarini]

Oh really, this doesn’t seem like a defrocked Episcopalian:
stfrancisfields.com/from-the-rector/

Not only was her husband Bill not defrocked not even suspended, he at first ‘repented’ his paganism, then a month later ‘repented’ his 'forced letter of ‘recantation’ and denounced his episcopalian ordination.

Sorry. I did not realize that she was still an Episcopal priest. Her husband, however, definitely is not. And this was because both of them were given the choice of renouncing pagan activities incompatible with Christian ministry or renouncing their priesthood. Perhaps being “defrocked” is not the right technical term. But it wasn’t that he didn’t want to go on being a pagan and an Episcopal priest at the same time. He did. And his extremely liberal bishop (admittedly under pressure from conservatives) didn’t give him that option.

Edwin

 

[total_Catholic]

"But I personally would find it difficult to give my assent to many doctrines that I just don’t believe in such as the doctrine that only men can be ordained. To me, 2000 years of doctrine and tradition starts to look like a straight jacket that prevents us from seeing and understanding God in new ways and ends up putting God into a box. "

I echo your thoughts Thorolfr.

I am Catholic but the older I get the less my conscience is comfortable with the conflicts the Catholic church creates for it. I can not continue to violate my conscience when I believe doctrines and teachings the church embraces are not healthy or whole. It goes beyond female ordination. I believe the church has done spiritual and emotional damage to gay individuals. ** The black and white embracing on the ban on contraception is not sound theology. ** I also don’t believe in infallibility. For me, it is not a matter of more catechesis. I have had more catechesis as an adult. Always learning and studying trying to accept it but I can not accept it. In fact, I believe the church has serious problems with its understanding of human sexuality. I have not figured out how to reconcile this and remain Catholic. I am probably more of an Episcopalian. But I do see the church is very broad and wide and I believe there is room for more than we may think.

Just stopping in this thread for a moment. I’ll have to come back and read the rest when I have time.

staycatholic.com/ecf_contraception.htm (perhaps this will help)

 

[total_Catholic]

Wonder how Henry VIII would feel about this? independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/survey-finds-2-of-anglican-priests-are-not-believers-9821899.html

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Rev David Paterson, a retired Church of England priest, said there was no conflict in preaching while being unable to believe in God. “Within my congregation I would take the line that how you feel about God is not in the least dependent on whether you think God exists or not. I preach using God’s terminology, but never with the suggestion that God actually exists,” he told University Times, Trinity College Dublin’s newspaper.

“Once you have accepted that religion is a human creation, then it is like art and literature and things like that. They are an extremely valuable way to understand yourself.”

With some of the statements coming out of Catholic pulpits the last few decades, I wouldn’t find it a stretch that this view is about the same among some Catholic clerical circles in Europe and the Americas.

 

[total_Catholic]

With some of the statements coming out of Catholic pulpits the last few decades, I wouldn’t find it a stretch that this view is about the same among some Catholic clerical circles in Europe and the Americas.

God help us. It’s sad to see what secularism has done to Christianity in Europe. St Paul warned us though.

 

[Thorolfr]

Wonder how Henry VIII would feel about this? independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/survey-finds-2-of-anglican-priests-are-not-believers-9821899.html

Clergy were significantly more likely to hold unorthodox beliefs the older they were and the longer they had been in the ministry. Nearly 90 per cent of those ordained since 2011 believe in God compared with only 72 per cent of those who became priests in the 1960s, the research discovered.

It would be interesting to know if any older Catholic priests also no longer believe in God anymore either. None of them would probably say so, but I would be surprised if there weren’t any who don’t believe any more.

 

[Picky_Picky]

It would be interesting to know if any older Catholic priests also no longer believe in God anymore either. None of them would probably say so, but I would be surprised if there weren’t any who don’t believe any more.

The fact that the 90pc 72pc figures seem difficult to square with the 2pc figure indicates to me that the reporting here is less than satisfactory, and also, almost certainly, the answers in this survey were more nuanced than the reporting suggests. It seems to me perfectly possible to believe in God and yet to answer that the God as presented to us is a human creation, for instance, or to believe in God and yet to answer that it is impossible for us to know what God is like.

 

[Contarini]

The fact that the 90pc 72pc figures seem difficult to square with the 2pc figure indicates to me that the reporting here is less than satisfactory, and also, almost certainly, the answers in this survey were more nuanced than the reporting suggests. It seems to me perfectly possible to believe in God and yet to answer that the God as presented to us is a human creation, for instance, or to believe in God and yet to answer that it is impossible for us to know what God is like.

Also, it’s funny that the figure about older priests being more likely to be “unorthodox” (as defined by the article–yay for the Magisterium of Journalists!) is being spun as evidence that being a priest for a long time makes you unorthodox. What it shows is that in the C of E, as in the Catholic Church, younger clergy tend to be more orthodox. That is my observation in the Episcopal Church as well (defining “more orthodox” here as “more likely to adhere wholeheartedly to the Creeds rather than explaining them away”).

Edwin

 

[GKC]

Also, it’s funny that the figure about older priests being more likely to be “unorthodox” (as defined by the article–yay for the Magisterium of Journalists!) is being spun as evidence that being a priest for a long time makes you unorthodox. What it shows is that in the C of E, as in the Catholic Church, younger clergy tend to be more orthodox. That is my observation in the Episcopal Church as well (defining “more orthodox” here as “more likely to adhere wholeheartedly to the Creeds rather than explaining them away”).

Edwin

Possibly the aging of the counterculture generation of yore. That’s my generation, of course.

GKC

 

[Picky_Picky]

Possibly the aging of the counterculture generation of yore. That’s my generation, of course.

GKC

Mine too, but I think you must be wrong. We knew we would never age, if I remember aright.

 

[GKC]

Mine too, but I think you must be wrong. We knew we would never age, if I remember aright.

So we thought.

But at my back, of late, I hear…

OTOH, my mother said I was 32 years old when I was born, never passing through the teen ages.

GKC