Any ex-pro-life staunchly pro-choicers out there?

[Apryl]

Just a note

I am not a Moderator or the OP of this thread… but I do believe it is very important that we not do any sort of Bait N Switch in threads like this.

The question was asked of people who had seen themselves as Pro-Life, who now see themselves as Pro-Choice, and what made that change.

There are oodles and oodles of resources and threads to point out the problems with being Pro-Life (as should be expected on a Catholic website)… so let’s let them vent, share, and maybe they can look at each other’s comments and see the issues that we (the Pro-Life) see so easily.

If you don’t agree, that’s great! But you don’t need to attack hte opinions or the reasoning.

Please Let us be as genteel and forgiving as possible

 

[Rence]

Just a note

I am not a Moderator or the OP of this thread… but I do believe it is very important that we not do any sort of Bait N Switch in threads like this.

The question was asked of people who had seen themselves as Pro-Life, who now see themselves as Pro-Choice, and what made that change.

There are oodles and oodles of resources and threads to point out the problems with being Pro-Life (as should be expected on a Catholic website)… so let’s let them vent, share, and maybe they can look at each other’s comments and see the issues that we (the Pro-Life) see so easily.

If you don’t agree, that’s great! But you don’t need to attack hte opinions or the reasoning.

Please Let us be as genteel and forgiving as possible

I thought I was doing that And I do try to be as genteel and forgiving as possible, especially since I was treated so harshly in another thread for daring to reply to a thread on a publc forum with my opionion I don’t like to be judged so I do so try not to judge. If you point out where I was baiting and switching or being uncharitable, please point it out and I’ll tone it down.

And thank you for being a peace-maker

 

[Apryl]

But trying to prevent it in the first place, I can understand that.

Yes. I agree that PREVENTING a life is wonderful! I also understand that.

The question I have for those who are willing to try to answer

How does having an Abortion UN-RAPE a person? If the child’s life has begun, how does the process of having an abortion un-do the damage that is part and parcel of a rape… one of the most voilent acts ever?

 

[Rence]

Yes. I agree that PREVENTING a life is wonderful! I also understand that.

The question I have for those who are willing to try to answer

How does having an Abortion UN-RAPE a person? If the child’s life has begun, how does the process of having an abortion un-do the damage that is part and parcel of a rape… one of the most voilent acts ever?

Oh, I’m sorry Ok, I’ll answer it from my perspective: Abortion doesn’t UN-RAPE a person. It doesn’t un-do the damage that is part and parcel of a rape. I don’t recall anyone ever saying it did. Nothing can undo what is done. If someone did say this, I never saw it.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t understand the use of Plan B post-rape. Morally it is no different from using Plan B post consensual sex (which is a form of contraception the Catholic Church definitely doesn’t allow).

See, teaching is clear that artificial birth control - whether it be things like condoms that prevent egg and sperm getting together at all, IUDs that prevent implantation of a fertilised egg or any other artificial method - are inherently evil.

Inherently evil means evil in and of themselves. Being inherently evil, it also means that nothing in the circumstances surrounding their use for the purpose of preventing pregnancy (be it at any stage - from fertilisation through to implantation) is justification.

Rape or incest do NOT justify the use of contraceptives.

 

[Apryl]

I thought I was doing that And I do try to be as genteel and forgiving as possible, especially since I was treated so harshly in another thread for daring to reply to a thread on a publc forum with my opionion I don’t like to be judged so I do so try not to judge. If you point out where I was baiting and switching or being uncharitable, please point it out and I’ll tone it down.

And thank you for being a peace-maker

My comments were not directed at you… or for that matter any one poster.

It was just the tone and tenor of those posts which I had recently read (and there is no telling how old they were when I got to them) were moving in the direction of Bully-Force.

When I would compose threads, I had to stop myself from posting things that were directed by my Anti-Abortion passion… and I wanted to just put a hush on others for the same.

You’re welcome for the peace-making efforts… I would just hope that when I get ~that way~, someone would pull my coat tail

 

[Apryl]

Oh, I’m sorry Ok, I’ll answer it from my perspective: Abortion doesn’t UN-RAPE a person. It doesn’t un-do the damage that is part and parcel of a rape. I don’t recall anyone ever saying it did. Nothing can undo what is done. If someone did say this, I never saw it.

Ok… so the abortion doesn’t undo the damage…

So what is it about the fact that it’s a case of rape (or incest) that makes abortion on those cases exceptional?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, I’m wondering about that too.

The argument about the ‘months’ of having this child ‘grow’ and ‘reliving’ the rape/incest? Well, since one doesn’t really ‘know for sure’ until one has missed a cycle and had a reliable pregnancy test, usually one has passed at least 1 month of the 9 and often close to 2 months. So that leaves really 7 to 8 months. Like. . .a school year, fall and spring semester.

And once the child is aborted, does that stop the ‘reliving’? Not really. In fact, it ‘adds on’ a further atrocity. . .one’s consent to the brutal murder of an innocent child. And this isn’t taking just 7 to 8 months out of a life–it has snuffed out the child forever, and it will last however long this young woman, already a victim of rape/incest, lives, so rather than giving 7 to 8 months out of her ‘busy life’, she may spend the next 70 years remembering. " Yes, I was pregnant once but I killed the child rather than give him or her a chance to live." How does adding a **further crime **against this young woman help? "Here, my dear, I can see you’re distraught at facing 7 to 8 months of pregnancy before you put this child up for adoption. Let’s just kill the thing–really, it’s only tissue!–well, not really, Ok it’s human but really, dear, is already suffering because its own mother can’t loooovvee it like it deserves, so it’s better off dead."

I’m sorry, I don’t mean this disrespectfully and it is not directed at anybody personally, God knows. . .but I simply cannot fathom the mindset that it’s better to rip this child into pieces or scald him to death or poison him because that death is somehow ‘better’ than allowing the child a chance to live. And I can’t fathom that any mother (and these women are mothers) is going to live a better, happier life because ‘that 7 or 8 months was just too, too much to bear’.

Well, it may be hard to bear, but hard things happen. And what of the woman who finds it ‘too hard’ to take care of her ‘born’ children? We’ve seen examples of this. . . why are we surprised that women who have now had a generation where they’ve been told that “if you’re pregnant and don’t want it, you don’t HAVE to have it” are treating their born children that way too?

Hey, it started with husbands. Don’t want to stay married? Well, first it was all right to divorce the ‘brutes’. Then it was all right to divorce for ‘love of another’. Now it’s all right to divorce ‘no fault’ --any reason at all is good enough, because ‘personal happiness’ is all that matters, and one **couldn’t possibly expect to spend months or years living in an ‘unhappy’ relationship. Mercy me no. **And now because so many treat marriage frivilously, those who really are in a situation where the marriage is truly ‘wrong’ are often coerced into staying in the marriage longer than they should.

Then it escalated to abortion and contraception. “Want sex but no babies? Take a pill!”

So now. . . it’s born children. Look at the child abuse stats (mostly married men/fathers, but a staggeringly higher show lately from MOTHERS).

Why not? We run and hide from consequences. It’s always somebody **else’s fault. **

We’re reaping what we’ve sown, and it’s not pretty.

I thank God for the courageous women–and men too—who are out there now. Who’ve gone through Rachel’s Vineyard. Who are questioning the ‘accepted wisdom’. Who are, often because of their own experience the first ones to see the big ‘lies’ that have been fed to humanity in the name of so-called ‘choice’.

 

[kage_ar]

Tell me, is eating at MacDonald’s ok? Have you tried to live on what they pay their employees? Is it pro-life to pay someone less than what it costs to live? Should Catholics not do business with people that do not pay their employees enough?

McDonalds up the street from me pays 7.50 an hour.

Let’s say that a part time employee gets 30 hours a week. That is around 800 take home pay. And, yes, I HAVE lived on that. Many people live on far less.

I know it is beyond the ability of the Church to figure it out, but what is pro-life really? When you say another person can not get an abortion, then, by the same logic you can say that a person cannot be a Mormon. Where do you draw the line?

Let’s say that this is bizzaro world, and every time someone decides to become Mormon, one of their children must be brutally killed. Then, I would march every year and work tirelessly to make sure it was against the law to become Mormon.

Last I checked, becoming Mormon did not kill an innocent child.

 

[Rence]

Ok… so the abortion doesn’t undo the damage…

So what is it about the fact that it’s a case of rape (or incest) that makes abortion on those cases exceptional?

Well, I’ve already answered that, twice. But okay: It’s not consensual. It’s an act of violence. It’s not a choice that the rape victim made. And women have the right to protect themselves from further injury. As I said above: “Everyone is different in what they can take. Some women who get pregnant as a result of rape could look on that as a good thing resulting from an evil event. They can look on that child as a blessing that turned a sinful situation to one of goodness. Others would be constantly reminded of that rape, and the situation is just going to compound on itself and cause more harm than “good”. For some women, it’s not as simple as waiting it out for nine months as a baby grows inside her, laboring to give birth and giving up the baby for adoption. Rather it’s a terrible emotional and mental hardship. Not everyone is going to view this child as a blessing. For some, it’s going to compound their hardship.”

I believe abortion is wrong. However, I believe, with the information I have available to me, that if one acts quickly enough, the odds are greater that taking Plan B in the case of rape is more likely to prevent conception, than it would prevent implantation. And the reason is because it takes time to conceive (several hours). It’s not automatic thing. In other words, I would understand a rape victim taking the chances with Plan B within a few hours of rape, to prevent becoming pregnant. I would *understand *her taking that gamble to further protect herself. The primary intention is to prevent pregancy, not terminate it. Once a person waits too long, that primary intention isn’t prevention anymore. And I said that in my above post as well.

And please note, I was only referring to rape, not incest. I don’t have enough understanding of it to talk about incest. So I’m really not prepared to debate it. I’m sure someone else would be willing to tackle that one sometime.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Rence, are you seriously trying to tell us that the few months of pregnancy (and then giving the child for adoption) are so stressful that the mother has to kill the baby rather than carry him/her for those months?

that killing a baby is the only solution to those **few months?

**That the entirely speculative ‘emotions’ of a few months are reason enough to kill the baby?

You know, there are a whole lot of things that happen to us that are stressful and that we don’t have the option to just ‘kill’.

Suppose this same woman had a medical illness. Suppose that in order to successfully treat the illness, the woman absolutely needed to undergo 9 months of treatment. . .radiation, chemotherapy etc. That treatment is difficult and painful and all through it she would be constantly reminded of the surgery awaiting her at the end.

So. . .does this woman, undergoing as much or MORE stress than a pregnancy, then routinely demand that she get the surgery **now now now and to hades with the ‘waiting?’
**
Goodness no. Despite the stress and the emotional agony etc., she waits those months because it’s a matter of saving HER life.

So. . .um. . .why not save the life of an innocent child? Why can the woman ‘wait’ when it’s ‘her’ health but not for the life of a child?

 

[Rence]

Rence, are you seriously trying to tell us that …QUOTE]

No, that’s not what I said. Repectfully speaking, though colorful and dramatic, your posts that apparently are responses to my posts are NOT a reflection of what I said. What I said was specific and get tired of the neverending cycle of being asked something, answering, getting my answer twisted and asked again…etc. Therefore, I’m not going to repost them. But you can read them yourself in posts #200 and #210. Thanks

 

[DebCat129]

Depending on what you mean by pro-choice, I am. When I say pro-choice I mean that I think every baby that is conceived should be treated like a human being and notkilled, but I cannot imagine what it is to be pregnant with a rapists child, and I think pro-life has to go farther than the birth if a child will simply die of starvation or be neglected or worse abused then is it truly a service to that child to bring them into the world? So in some cases, more than the Catholic Church, I am understanding of an abortion. When it comes to laws of the United States, I do not support anti-abortion laws, because even though I truly believe it is a life and it is murder I also think that there are extenuating circumstances and I think that outlawing abortion will not olve the problem, women will still have abortions ut instead of going to a doctor in a sterile environment they will do with coat hangers or other dangerous and scary things. So if that is what you consider pro-choice then I am a Catholic who is also pro-choice. As far as ex-pro-life, I am that but only in the sense that I was pro-life because the Church is so sure it is the right way and I had not developed my fully informed conscience (sorry for the spelling).

My young sister was raped and became pregnant, and she chose life…Why you ask?
She was given the divine knowledge that “Her” Child (yes this child is part of her) was INNOCENT…Why should she kill her child because of the sin of the father? These poor children are murdered day after day, thousands of them simply because they are deemed inconvenient. Its interesting that during the Holocaust millions of Jewish people were murdered because the Nazis thought “THEY” were inconvenient or sub-human, and get this they made it LEGAL to kill Jewish people. Did that make it right? No, it was still evil.

You say if they outlaw abortions women will use coat hangers and such. People need to realize that sex is not a pass time, nor is it a tool of personal satisfaction, we need to respect our bodies. I’d recommend that you read a book titled Theology of the Body, by the author with the last name of West, I think it will help you with your dilemma.

Well lets look at what leads to pregnancy. You have schools giving out contraception like it was candy, and they instill that sex is normal for kids, and that contraception is fool proof, so kids and young adults have sexual relations with no real grasp of reality. Its a past time for them or a status thing. We need to teach people about such things.

Abortion is not the answer, the wounds it leaves are far greater than any perceived inconvenience. I’ve seen more women commit suicide because they realized they murdered their child. These women are lied to and betrayed by people that tell them abortion is the answer, that it will make everything better, because the fact is…It makes things worse, the guilt, the oppression, the sorrow. Its really sad to see. Try talking to a woman that had an abortion, and has not yet come to grips with it and you will see a shell of a person, filled with regret, and anger.

I hope this sees you well.

 

[Rence]

My young sister was raped and became pregnant, and she chose life…Why you ask?

I don’t ask why at all. I think your sister is a special person. She and her child are lucky to have each other and to have found goodness in something bad that happened. I hope your sister is healed and well.

 

[DebCat129]

I don’t ask why at all. I think your sister is a special person. She and her child are lucky to have each other and to have found goodness in something bad that happened. I hope your sister is healed and well.

She is pretty amazing, so is her Son. Thank You.

 

[Magdalena09]

Okay, I’m sorry, but the whole rape argument is bogus and irresponsible and intellectually dishonest.

I was raped at 16. I went to therapy for it, including group therapy that was specifically for victims of rape. No one in my group got pregnant as a result of their rape. But our therapist did have one of her past clients come in and talk to us. One of the questions asked was if she ever struggled with anger to the point of it disrupting her life. It was not until she answered this question that she brought up the fact that she was one of the EXTREMELY RARE cases that became pregnant as a result of the rape. She said that her hatred for her rapist grew during the entire pregnancy and after the baby was born she suffered post-partum depression and didn’t even want to look at her son. Her mother and father took care of the baby for about two months and then one day when she was “checking in” on the baby and her parents, her baby smiled at her despite not really knowing her as his mother. She said her heart melted on the spot and she suddenly realized that this was her SON despite everything. And she said in that, there was a tremendous amount of healing and over time she actually found it hard to stay so angry at the fact that she was raped. She said it was almost paradoxical.

It’s been several years since I was raped and certain things still remind me of it. Sometimes it isn’t even so much the rape itself as the person or the time in my life right before and right after it happened. When I hear songs that played on the radio at that time, I remember. When I drive down certain roads, I remember. When I’m with certain people, I remember. When I see pictures from that month, I remember. This is common for traumatic events in our lives. Saying that a baby is a hindrance to healing is just plain misinformation, and to go so far as saying a baby will make things worse… well, that’s just an unfounded myth that has no basis in reality. Logically, it would SEEM that that would be the case. But it just isn’t the truth.

And it needs to stop.

 

[DebCat129]

Okay, I’m sorry, but the whole rape argument is bogus and irresponsible and intellectually dishonest.

I was raped at 16. I went to therapy for it, including group therapy that was specifically for victims of rape. No one in my group got pregnant as a result of their rape. But our therapist did have one of her past clients come in and talk to us. One of the questions asked was if she ever struggled with anger to the point of it disrupting her life. It was not until she answered this question that she brought up the fact that she was one of the EXTREMELY RARE cases that became pregnant as a result of the rape. She said that her hatred for her rapist grew during the entire pregnancy and after the baby was born she suffered post-partum depression and didn’t even want to look at her son. Her mother and father took care of the baby for about two months and then one day when she was “checking in” on the baby and her parents, her baby smiled at her despite not really knowing her as his mother. She said her heart melted on the spot and she suddenly realized that this was her SON despite everything. And she said in that, there was a tremendous amount of healing and over time she actually found it hard to stay so angry at the fact that she was raped. She said it was almost paradoxical.

It’s been several years since I was raped and certain things still remind me of it. Sometimes it isn’t even so much the rape itself as the person or the time in my life right before and right after it happened. When I hear songs that played on the radio at that time, I remember. When I drive down certain roads, I remember. When I’m with certain people, I remember. When I see pictures from that month, I remember. This is common for traumatic events in our lives. Saying that a baby is a hindrance to healing is just plain misinformation, and to go so far as saying a baby will make things worse… well, that’s just an unfounded myth that has no basis in reality. Logically, it would SEEM that that would be the case. But it just isn’t the truth.

And it needs to stop.

AMEN Alleluia!

 

[Sheeniac]

I know these things, but Jesus is God! He could have stopped the pain any time he wanted, he could have chosen not to die and forgiven our sins in another way! God can do anything.

I don’t think Jesus can be compared to an ordinary child.

Flyingfish - may I ask 2 questions? 1. Are you a practicing Catholic? 2. What is your age range?

(For full disclosure, I am a practicing Catholic in my early 40s.)

 

[Apryl]

And women have the right to protect themselves from further injury.

So I take it that, in your opinion, and abortion is not an act of violence, nor does it cause injury. Correct.

I believe abortion is wrong.

WHY do you believe abortion is wrong? What is it that, for you, makes abortion a ‘bad thing’, or wrong?

However, I believe, with the information I have available to me, that if one acts quickly enough, the odds are greater that taking Plan B in the case of rape is more likely to prevent conception, than it would prevent implantation.

I think part of the misunderstanding is that you are tossing cucumbers in with the applesauce If the pregnancy is prevented, there is no abortion. I’m not talking about the prevention of a pregnancy, but the end of an existing pregnancy.

 

[Apryl]

Rence, are you seriously trying to tell us that the few months of pregnancy (and then giving the child for adoption) are so stressful that the mother has to kill the baby rather than carry him/her for those months?

Hey, hey hey!

Let us NOT attack those with the opinions that were ASKED for in this thread!

Rence is answering, I believe honestly, what his/her opinion is.

Besides, this helps us (those who do not agree with the ‘Pro-Choice’ stance) to understand what is being thought.

Sidenote: I believe that all the YEARS of people being told, repeatedly, ‘except in the case of rape or incest’, that children that are the product of rape or incest are seen as less human.

Just a thought.