Any ex-pro-life staunchly pro-choicers out there?

[Tantum_ergo]

But yet, these two situations are different. One is inside of another. It’s just not the same and I’ve come to realize that when we compare abortion to the murder of another person that lives on their own we simplify things.

Trust me, I respect and understand your position as I was once there. I just think more and more that, when I was there, I made it all way too simple.

Are you sure that you aren’t going the ‘opposite way’ and making it more complicated than it is?

Quite frankly, people are very ‘different.’ Some people faint at the sight of blood; others do not. Some people experience ‘excruciating pain’ with a headache, say; others are able to carry on all normal functions. Some women (and/or their partners, spouses, parents etc.) are ‘overwhelmed’ by an event (ANY event, not just rape and pregnancy); others are not. So are we going to say that because Ms. A, for example, is SO traumatized by the thought of carrying a child of rape for 9 months and then putting the child for adoption that Ms. A is having heart palpitations, is dizzy, sick and nauseated, having PTSD symptoms, crying hysterically, etc. for, let’s say 1 week since she found out that she was pregnant, that she is just ‘unable’ to carry the child and should (in KINDNESS) be allowed to kill that baby?

Um, having been pregnant myself 3 times, I can tell you that heart palpitations, dizziness, sickness, nausea, crying, and feeling overwhelmed -and yes, PTSD symptoms. Furthermore, one feels differently at 3 months pregnant than one does at 5 months pregnant, 6 months pregnant, etc. Just as you and I (not pregnant) or in fact any individual on earth is going to feel ‘different’ tomorrow and next month and next year and next decade etc. Just because at 10 a.m. on February 6, 2010 I might feel ‘overwhelmed’ doesn’t mean that I’m always going to feel that way.

Suppose you had a sick parent. You were told; You can let your parent stay in the hospital for 9 months and then they will be fine. Of course, you’ll have to stay with them for that time. And now and then you might have to get some blood taken to help them. Finally, you’ll have some real physical pain just before they are discharged.

But if you don’t, well, we’ll just have to kill your parent.

Would you, in that situation, let your parent die? I mean, look at the inconvenience you have to go through, even though at the end they’re perfectly fine. All they did was bring you into the world and care for you but do you really ‘owe’ them enough that you would give up 9 months of YOUR busy life and some physical pain for them? I mean, is it FAIR?

 

[baylee]

Sigh…here we go again.

What did the original poster say about NOT trying to bait the pro-choice readers?:coffeeread:

My my, that attempt at politeness and courtesy didn’t last long, now did it?:dts:

So here we go once again, baiting those whose opinions you do not like with the concept of “well formed conscience”. :slapfight:

LOL…

The scary part is there was a time when I’d probably be doing the same things…mea culpa. Granted, I still disagree with a lot of what flyingfish is saying, but I really don’t like the tone of some of these posts who supposedly have the better formed consciences.

 

[baylee]

Enlighten me. Show me how the legalization of abortion was a good thing.

I’m sorry. I don’t respond to sarcastic responses. I think there have probably been a number of posts on these forums where the other position has been represented. If you weren’t willing to listen then, why would you now?

And to be clear, I’m not saying legal abortion is a good thing. I’m just saying that I don’t think illegal abortion is a good thing either.

 

[kage_ar]

I’m sorry. I don’t respond to sarcastic responses. I think there have probably been a number of posts on these forums where the other position has been represented. If you weren’t willing to listen then, why would you now?

And to be clear, I’m not saying legal abortion is a good thing. I’m just saying that I don’t think illegal abortion is a good thing either.

Not sarcastic - I simply would like to hear what could change a pro baby person to a pro abort.

 

[baylee]

Not sarcastic - I simply would like to hear what could change a pro baby person to a pro abort.

Ah, the “pro-baby” vs “pro-abort” labels. Yet another example of not really listening to the other side. Sorry kage…you and I are not going to get anywhere in this “discussion”.

 

[kage_ar]

Ah, the “pro-baby” vs “pro-abort” labels. Yet another example of not really listening to the other side. Sorry kage…you and I are not going to get anywhere in this “discussion”.

Let us all pray for an end to abortion and that all will come to embrace life as Jesus taught us.

 

[baylee]

I’m not sure why all the debates over abortion. We all know that Catholics are against it and why they are against it. Catholics view life starts at conception. Simple.

The problem is, however, that not everyone is Catholic and believes that life starts at conception. Some don’t feel it’s a person until there’s a heartbeat. Others feel it’s later on when the central nervous system is developed and they can feel pain. Yet others feel it’s not until birth–or at a gestational period where the fetus could survive outside its mother’s womb.

I am Catholic and believe abortion is wrong and would go out of my way to talk someone out of it. But it is not my place to judge. And as much as I would disagree, they have their own moral code they live by. It would be great if Catholics ruled the world and could make every law and enforce them. But that’s never going to happen. Not everyone is Catholic. This argument will never end unless everyone were Catholic-- and strict Catholics at that.

I get this point more and more. Because I do believe life begins at conception, I can’t call myself pro-choice…but I do recognize that this is not everyone’s belief…so who am I to tell them what they should do? We live in a democracy, not a theocracy.

 

[baylee]

Let us all pray for an end to abortion and that all will come to embrace life as Jesus taught us.

You are including yourself in there right kage? Or is this your way to belittle those you think just aren’t cutting it?

 

[kage_ar]

You are including yourself in there right kage? Or is this your way to belittle those you think just aren’t cutting it?

What on earth does that mean? I pray for an end to abortion many times every day, I fast for the babies, I provide material assistance and emotional support to the confused mommies. When was the last time YOU stood in the rain for hours to pray for an end to abortion?

 

[baylee]

What on earth does that mean? I pray for an end to abortion many times every day, I fast for the babies, I provide material assistance and emotional support to the confused mommies. When was the last time YOU stood in the rain for hours to pray for an end to abortion?

First of all, I’m totally with you on the praying for the end to abortion. We can all do that without making it illegal.

I’m talking about the bolded part below. Is that for everyone including yourself or was that your way of saying “let’s pray for those here who just aren’t cutting it?” It certainly comes across (along with your list above) as if you’re praying for those who aren’t as good as you are. I apologize if not, but you are definitely coming across as the Pharisee in the temple who thanked God he wasn’t like that sinner over there.

Let us all pray for an end to abortion and that all will come to embrace life as Jesus taught us.

 

[kage_ar]

First of all, I’m totally with you on the praying for the end to abortion. We can all do that without making it illegal.

I’m talking about the bolded part below. Is that for everyone including yourself or was that your way of saying “let’s pray for those here who just aren’t cutting it?” It certainly comes across (along with your list above) as if you’re praying for those who aren’t as good as you are. I apologize if not, but you are definitely coming across as the Pharisee in the temple who thanked God he wasn’t like that sinner over there.

Let us all pray for an end to abortion and that all will come to embrace life as Jesus taught us.

“Us” is an inclusive pronoun. By default the speaker is included.

“All” refers to every human being on planet earth. Last I checked, I was a human being on the planet earth.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With respect, baylee, (and as Kage noted earlier) you simply can’t have a situation where both those who say “abortion should be permitted in all, or in certain cases” and 'abortion should not be permitted in any case" can both be ‘right.’

So it isn’t a question of ‘my’ morality, as though you can have a totally different ‘morality’ and be right ‘for you’. It doesn’t work that way. Morality is absolute, not relative.

Either abortion is the murder of a child, or it is NOT the murder of a child.

If it is the murder of a child (and it is) then there is simply no justification for it. Ever. And it doesn’t matter if to Ms. X and Mrs. Y, ‘it isn’t really murder’ or it’s something that HAS to be done.

 

[hosemonkey]

With respect, baylee, (and as Kage noted earlier) you simply can’t have a situation where both those who say “abortion should be permitted in all, or in certain cases” and 'abortion should not be permitted in any case" can both be ‘right.’

So it isn’t a question of ‘my’ morality, as though you can have a totally different ‘morality’ and be right ‘for you’. It doesn’t work that way. Morality is absolute, not relative.

Well said. Either it is or it ain’t.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

baylee

*I get this point more and more. Because I do believe life begins at conception, I can’t call myself pro-choice…but I do recognize that this is not everyone’s belief…so who am I to tell them what they should do? We live in a democracy, not a theocracy. *

Sadly, you appear to be among the growing number of Catholics who have bought into the notion that only religious people would see the evil of legalized abortion. The Church opposes abortion not only because it is wrong, but because it goes against reason. I know atheists who also oppose abortion for the same reason. One cannot smugly assert that the country is in danger of being a theocracy when it is really in danger of being a nation of stupid people who cavalierly suppose that abortion is not the execution of innocent life, whereas the taking of innocent life outside the womb is murder.

 

[MikiBee]

It does all come down to one’s view of when a life is a life… not just the potential for life. As a Catholic WE believe babies are given a soul at conception. Many many many people believe that if a baby can’t survive outside of its mother’s womb, it is not “a person”. Therefore they don’t feel it’s murder, since the baby couldn’t couldn’t survive on its own anyway without its mother.

It is very different than killing the child after it’s born. After it’s born, the baby doesn’t need its mother for life. Yes, it would need SOMEONE to care for its basic needs and give it love, but it is no longer completely dependent on its mother.

I am pro-life personally, but I just don’t feel I can or should force others to hold my beliefs. Jesus never forced anyone to follow Him. Why do we think it’s okay for us?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It does all come down to one’s view of when a life is a life… not just the potential for life. As a Catholic WE believe babies are given a soul at conception. Many many many people believe that if a baby can’t survive outside of its mother’s womb, it is not “a person”. Therefore they don’t feel it’s murder, since the baby couldn’t couldn’t survive on its own anyway without its mother.

It is very different than killing the child after it’s born. After it’s born, the baby doesn’t need its mother for life. Yes, it would need SOMEONE to care for its basic needs and give it love, but it is no longer completely dependent on its mother.

I am pro-life personally, but I just don’t feel I can or should force others to hold my beliefs. Jesus never forced anyone to follow Him. Why do we think it’s okay for us?

Hon, do you really think that Jesus gave ‘one set of beliefs’ for His followers but permits those who don’t follow or believe in Him to have a ‘different’ set of beliefs and that both are equally OK?

That it is wrong for CHRISTIANS to have an abortion, but okay if you’re not Christian?

I can’t repeat enough (apparently). . .there is no such thing as a “Christian belief” which is for us and ‘other beliefs’ for other people, all being equally 'moral.

There is truth. . . and there is falsehood.

Abortion is murder. No matter how many people bleat that for them it 'isn’t. . .doesn’t change the truth.

That isn’t imposing MY beliefs. Unless you feel that the truth is an ‘imposition’.

An object in motion tends to remain in motion. That is a natural ‘law’ and it is a truth. I’m not ‘imposing it on you’ by stating it. So why is the truth suddenly only my ‘belief’ when it comes to abortion?

 

[YADA]

Mental illnesses and disabilities are not on the level of not having a consciousness at all.

If someone is brain dead, I think they are no longer a person. I am not sure at what age babies start to have thoughts/become self aware.** My own earliest memories are from about 2 years old. **

Until the self awareness is there, I wouldn’t call it a person, but that’s my personal opinion.

Does president Obama troll here looking for people to appoint to his administration? Are you angling for a presidential appointment … because you are just the kind of Catholic Mr. Obama seeks to surround himself with … I hope that works out for ya …

Did you study medicine with Rahm’s brother … he thinks killing children to the age of two is OKAY too

 

[MikiBee]

Hon, do you really think that Jesus gave ‘one set of beliefs’ for His followers but permits those who don’t follow or believe in Him to have a ‘different’ set of beliefs and that both are equally OK?

That it is wrong for CHRISTIANS to have an abortion, but okay if you’re not Christian?

I can’t repeat enough (apparently). . .there is no such thing as a “Christian belief” which is for us and ‘other beliefs’ for other people, all being equally 'moral.

There is truth. . . and there is falsehood.

Abortion is murder. No matter how many people bleat that for them it 'isn’t. . .doesn’t change the truth.

That isn’t imposing MY beliefs. Unless you feel that the truth is an ‘imposition’.

An object in motion tends to remain in motion. That is a natural ‘law’ and it is a truth. I’m not ‘imposing it on you’ by stating it. So why is the truth suddenly only my ‘belief’ when it comes to abortion?

Who said abortion is murder? Where can I find this truth? Don’t say the bible… because not everyone believes in God. And there are some that believe in God, but believe the bible is written by fallible men.

And if you re-read my previous post, I stated clearly that I am personally pro-life. I personally believe it is wrong for ME to have an abortion. I do not believe that truth is an imposition, but I do know people who would ask me what makes it truth. Considering so many women have abortions, and considering it is legal, I can’t help but conclude that there are people who, in fact, don’t believe that abortion is murder. For them, THAT is the truth.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Who said abortion is murder? Where can I find this truth? Don’t say the bible… because not everyone believes in God. And there are some that believe in God, but believe the bible is written by fallible men.

And if you re-read my previous post, I stated clearly that I am personally pro-life. I personally believe it is wrong for ME to have an abortion. I do not believe that truth is an imposition, but I do know people who would ask me what makes it truth. Considering so many women have abortions, and considering it is legal, I can’t help but conclude that there are people who, in fact, don’t believe that abortion is murder. For them, THAT is the truth.

No. Truth is NOT relative.

If abortion is murder, it is murder for you, for me, and for the women who say, "it’s legal’. (

I fear you have fallen into the fallacy of relativism. You really don’t see the disconnect with making morality into a personal’ whim’ as to whether it suits any individual at any given time?

Hey, what if I decide to steal your car (if you own one)? It’s not wrong for me–I NEED that car. It might be wrong for you but how dare you force YOUR beliefs onto me??

 

[Charlemagne_II]

MikiBee

*Who said abortion is murder? Where can I find this truth? Don’t say the bible… because not everyone believes in God. And there are some that believe in God, but believe the bible is written by fallible men. *

Yes, it’s in the Bible. “Thou shalt not kill.” Do you think a child in the womb is not killed by an abortion?

Those who do not believe in God or in the Bible cannot use that as an excuse to support abortion. The universal argument against abortion is that it is irrational. You don’t kill your own children. Even atheists can see and agree with that logic, and I know some who do.