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chero23
Guest
but if you want to be close to God, wouldn’t that be something you should do, of going out and finding the truth? Like i have told my gf, read the church fathers don’t be afraid
- Status
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SecretaryMonday
Guest
Hello dreamfleur! I’m glad that you were able to attend university, and to study the Fathers. (Whatever study I’ve done has been casual - I figured, if I could study the New Testament, it probably wouldn’t be too much above my head to read the Fathers as well.)
I started a thread on this topic at Club Adventist forums. I’m not sure how clearly I presented my question, but here is a link if you are interested: clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/564247/Who_are_the_Early_Fathers_for_.html#Post564247
(Note that the only people who responded seemed to be laypeople; an expert might have been able to give further discussion.)
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chero23
Guest
Sounds like they weren’t to happy with your post, huh?
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dreamfleur
Guest
Wow! I will say that you have a very firm grasp on what you are presenting. The professor in specific that I took Early Christendom from was a very “liberal” SDA, at one point I think he studied with monks to complete his doctoral thesis, so he wasn’t anti-Catholic per se. The Christian fathers that we studied were very “light” if I might say because since it was a history class we just touched on major points of each one ( this was over 15 years ago…sorry if I don’t remember well). But regardless, somehow we managed to get to the present day linking all of that information to the current SDA beliefs. Imagine that!!! I wish I could remember more…
I will tell you that the Waldenses are where they supposedly claim that the truth was hidden. They were supposedly early Christians that held the truth of Jesus Christ and were persecuted until the time of the reformation which after that was connected to the prophecy in Daniel/Revelation that gives the 1260 days which equals= 1844 ( the great disappointment/ investigative judgement doctrine creation). I know Ellen White writes in one of her books about this supposed history (I have not read the book,but some say there are errors…).
On a side-note I have been reading Martin Luther (since I am trying to make sense of everything) and I notice that most of his reasoning is very circular, at times it makes my head spin and I can’t make anything of it…
I am still looking for answers (as you were) but like you were told on the SDA forum, they desperately grab onto the Bible (and their “special” interpretation of it) and will not look elsewhere. It’s very sad actually.
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dreamfleur
Guest
My husband is Catholic and feels the same way that you do. He will go to the SDA services with me but tells me that “something is not right”. You are smart in going with your gut. I understand your gf though, it’s very hard to see anything than what they tell you, especially if raised SDA. It has taken me almost 40 years of my life to have the courage to “look” at something else.
Just keep reading the Bible (the SDA’s know some parts better than others) and perhaps show her a Catechism and have her see what Catholics “really” believe, as opposed to what the SDA’s told her they believed.
Good luck!
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chero23
Guest
I have tried, I think her biggest issue is that her dad is so overbearing, he made her mom convert from Catholicism to SDA, granted she did not put up a fight, I always tell her your dad is a machista, their from El Salvador, I’m like with me you will have a voice since our relationship is 1
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paulrxp
Guest
Interesting, with regards to Constantine, my understanding is he legalized Sunday. Still, if the belief is that Constantine changed it, that would not square with the writings of Ignatius of Antioch who lived a full century earlier and died in AD 108 he wrote:
“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him… **Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath **after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for “he that does not work, let him not eat.”…let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]” “Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians,” The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pp. 62-63
This would refute Constantine being the first to change the Sabbath. Of course the belief that changing the Sabbath would not be supported either by Catholics because clearly here Ignatius uses the words Lord’s Day.
I guess the point is, if you ignore early Christian history alltogether for whatever reason, especially since it’s not biblical you are ignoring huge details that will lead you to the truth. That’s why I mentioned before that the history of the Bible and when and how the canon of Scriptures were assembled matters, it matters a great deal. There are centuries of practices and teachings that go unaccounted for from the direct teachings of the apostles if this history is not examined. This is what the Church has, that no other denomination can claim, not now, or not during those earlier years when the Bishops were recognized as having the authority.
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dreamfleur
Guest
Thank you for enlightening me with that information.
In that sense then “yes”, they do shun the Church Fathers. I was not aware of this because, believing that what a Professor presents as the “truth” about history I would have never dug any deeper. But these classes are generally the classes that Theology majors take in the SDA universities, the ones that will eventually become SDA pastors, so it makes sense that the “truth” will be presented in whatever way is convenient for the SDA doctrine to look legit.
Thanks again. My eyes are being opened slowly…
In that sense then “yes”, they do shun the Church Fathers. I was not aware of this because, believing that what a Professor presents as the “truth” about history I would have never dug any deeper. But these classes are generally the classes that Theology majors take in the SDA universities, the ones that will eventually become SDA pastors, so it makes sense that the “truth” will be presented in whatever way is convenient for the SDA doctrine to look legit.
Thanks again. My eyes are being opened slowly…
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SecretaryMonday
Guest
You’re kind!
Sometimes I worry that I make lots of words without actually saying anything.I didn’t realize that the Waldensians might have a connection with the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation in SDA thought. I thought they were just seen as an early version of Protestantism. My Adventist pastor mentioned them several times, but never went into any detail about them, except that the Catholic Church mistreated them.
Were the Waldensians considered purer than the later Reformers? I know there is a quote somewhere from Ellen White that mixes praise and disappointment about the Reformation, claiming that they left a lot of ‘Babylon’ behind them, just not enough.
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dreamfleur
Guest
from wikipedia (I know… not the most reliable source, but nevertheless…)
Seventh-day Adventist Ellen G. White taught that the Waldenses were preservers of biblical truth during the so-called Great Apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church.[34] She believed that the Waldenses kept the seventh-day Sabbath, engaged in widespread missionary activity, and “planted the seeds of the Reformation” in Europe.[35][36] Based on the Catechism of the Waldenses they believed in keeping the ten commandments.[37]
and from EGW’s The Great Controversy Chapter 4
**But of those who resisted the encroachments of the papal power, the Waldenses stood foremost. In the very land where popery had fixed its seat, there its falsehood and corruption were most steadfastly resisted. For centuries the churches of Piedmont maintained their independence; but the time came at last when Rome insisted upon their submission. After ineffectual struggles against her tyranny, the leaders of these churches reluctantly acknowledged the supremacy of the power to which the whole world seemed to pay homage. There were some, however, who refused to yield to the authority of pope or prelate. They were determined to maintain their allegiance to God and to preserve the purity and simplicity of their faith. A separation took place. Those who adhered to the ancient faith now withdrew; some, forsaking their native Alps, raised the banner of truth in foreign lands; others retreated to the secluded glens and rocky fastnesses of the mountains, and there preserved their freedom to worship God.
The faith which for centuries was held and taught by the Waldensian Christians was in marked contrast to the false doctrines put forth from Rome. Their religious belief was founded upon the written word of God, the true system of Christianity. But those humble peasants, in their obscure retreats, shut away from the world, and bound to daily toil among their flocks and their vineyards, had not by themselves arrived at the truth in opposition to the dogmas and heresies of the apostate church. Theirs was not a faith newly received. Their religious belief was their inheritance from their fathers. They contended for the faith of the apostolic church,–“the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 3. “The church in the wilderness,” and not the proud hierarchy enthroned in the world’s great capital, was the true church of Christ, the guardian of the treasures of truth which God has committed to His people to be given to the world.
65
Among the leading causes that had led to the separation of the true church from Rome was the hatred of the latter toward the Bible Sabbath. As foretold by prophecy, the papal power cast down the truth to the ground. The law of God was trampled in the dust, while the traditions and customs of men were exalted. The churches that were under the rule of the papacy were early compelled to honor the Sunday as a holy day. Amid the prevailing error and superstition, many, even of the true people of God, became so bewildered that while they observed the Sabbath, they refrained from labor also on the Sunday. But this did not satisfy the papal leaders. They demanded not only that Sunday be hallowed, but that the Sabbath be profaned; and they denounced in the strongest language those who dared to show it honor. It was only by fleeing from the power of Rome that any could obey God’s law in peace. (See Appendix.)
The Waldenses were among the first of the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures. (See Appendix.) Hundreds of years before the Reformation they possessed the Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated, and this rendered them the special objects of hatred and persecution. They declared the Church of Rome to be the apostate Babylon of the Apocalypse, and at the peril of their lives they stood up to resist her corruptions. While, under the pressure of long-continued persecution, some compromised their faith, little by little yielding its distinctive principles, others held fast the truth. Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of opposition they maintained their faith. Though gashed by the Savoyard spear, and scorched by the Romish fagot, they stood unflinchingly for God’s word and His honor.
Behind the lofty bulwarks of the mountains–in all ages the refuge of the persecuted and oppressed–the Waldenses
**
I believe they tie this into the Revelation 12 prophecy (which SDA’s interpret as the “truth” having to hide in the desert for 1260 days Rev 12:6… I have now learned that the Catholics apply this to Mary, and frankly it makes a lot more sense that it’s Mary). The SDA use Daniel and Revelation together to “unlock” secrets about the last days and have a formula down to figure how each day actually equals so many years etc… which is how they got 1844. It’s a long shot, but how many people in the world buy it…LOTS and LOTS.
Seventh-day Adventist Ellen G. White taught that the Waldenses were preservers of biblical truth during the so-called Great Apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church.[34] She believed that the Waldenses kept the seventh-day Sabbath, engaged in widespread missionary activity, and “planted the seeds of the Reformation” in Europe.[35][36] Based on the Catechism of the Waldenses they believed in keeping the ten commandments.[37]
and from EGW’s The Great Controversy Chapter 4
**But of those who resisted the encroachments of the papal power, the Waldenses stood foremost. In the very land where popery had fixed its seat, there its falsehood and corruption were most steadfastly resisted. For centuries the churches of Piedmont maintained their independence; but the time came at last when Rome insisted upon their submission. After ineffectual struggles against her tyranny, the leaders of these churches reluctantly acknowledged the supremacy of the power to which the whole world seemed to pay homage. There were some, however, who refused to yield to the authority of pope or prelate. They were determined to maintain their allegiance to God and to preserve the purity and simplicity of their faith. A separation took place. Those who adhered to the ancient faith now withdrew; some, forsaking their native Alps, raised the banner of truth in foreign lands; others retreated to the secluded glens and rocky fastnesses of the mountains, and there preserved their freedom to worship God.
The faith which for centuries was held and taught by the Waldensian Christians was in marked contrast to the false doctrines put forth from Rome. Their religious belief was founded upon the written word of God, the true system of Christianity. But those humble peasants, in their obscure retreats, shut away from the world, and bound to daily toil among their flocks and their vineyards, had not by themselves arrived at the truth in opposition to the dogmas and heresies of the apostate church. Theirs was not a faith newly received. Their religious belief was their inheritance from their fathers. They contended for the faith of the apostolic church,–“the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 3. “The church in the wilderness,” and not the proud hierarchy enthroned in the world’s great capital, was the true church of Christ, the guardian of the treasures of truth which God has committed to His people to be given to the world.
65
Among the leading causes that had led to the separation of the true church from Rome was the hatred of the latter toward the Bible Sabbath. As foretold by prophecy, the papal power cast down the truth to the ground. The law of God was trampled in the dust, while the traditions and customs of men were exalted. The churches that were under the rule of the papacy were early compelled to honor the Sunday as a holy day. Amid the prevailing error and superstition, many, even of the true people of God, became so bewildered that while they observed the Sabbath, they refrained from labor also on the Sunday. But this did not satisfy the papal leaders. They demanded not only that Sunday be hallowed, but that the Sabbath be profaned; and they denounced in the strongest language those who dared to show it honor. It was only by fleeing from the power of Rome that any could obey God’s law in peace. (See Appendix.)
The Waldenses were among the first of the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures. (See Appendix.) Hundreds of years before the Reformation they possessed the Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated, and this rendered them the special objects of hatred and persecution. They declared the Church of Rome to be the apostate Babylon of the Apocalypse, and at the peril of their lives they stood up to resist her corruptions. While, under the pressure of long-continued persecution, some compromised their faith, little by little yielding its distinctive principles, others held fast the truth. Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of opposition they maintained their faith. Though gashed by the Savoyard spear, and scorched by the Romish fagot, they stood unflinchingly for God’s word and His honor.
Behind the lofty bulwarks of the mountains–in all ages the refuge of the persecuted and oppressed–the Waldenses
**
I believe they tie this into the Revelation 12 prophecy (which SDA’s interpret as the “truth” having to hide in the desert for 1260 days Rev 12:6… I have now learned that the Catholics apply this to Mary, and frankly it makes a lot more sense that it’s Mary). The SDA use Daniel and Revelation together to “unlock” secrets about the last days and have a formula down to figure how each day actually equals so many years etc… which is how they got 1844. It’s a long shot, but how many people in the world buy it…LOTS and LOTS.
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pablope
Guest
I believe they tie this into the Revelation 12 prophecy (which SDA’s interpret as the “truth” having to hide in the desert for 1260 days Rev 12:6… I have now learned that the Catholics apply this to Mary, and frankly it makes a lot more sense that it’s Mary). The SDA use Daniel and Revelation together to “unlock” secrets about the last days and have a formula down to figure how each day actually equals so many years etc… which is how they got 1844. It’s a long shot, but how many people in the world buy it…LOTS and LOTS.
Here is catholic research on the Waldenses:
philvaz.com/apologetics/num3.htm
Who Were the Waldenses? Early Evangelicals?
Some Fundamentalists and Evangelicals like to claim there were many “Bible only” Christians who existed throughout the history of the Church who did not belong to the visible “institutional” Roman Catholic (or Orthodox) Church and in fact repudiated her sacraments and denied her established doctrines. Depending on who is making this claim, these non-Catholic Christians are supposed to be early Evangelicals, Baptists, Plymouth Brethren, Seventh-day Adventists, or “King James Only” believers before the sixteenth-century Protestants, and some go on to claim they can even be traced back to the apostles themselves through a succession of groups who held doctrines consistent with Baptist distinctives, such as Sola Scriptura and believer’s baptism. This claim is commonly known as the “baptist successionism” thesis.
But are these claims true? Is there any evidence for such claims? What are the real historical facts?
WHAT ABOUT THE WALDENSES?
The same period of Medieval history that saw the rise and suppression of the Cathars witnessed the emergence of a very different religious movement known as the Waldenses. In contrast to the Cathars, whose dualistic world- and life-view placed them in radical opposition to historic Christianity, the Waldenses began as a reform movement within the Roman Catholic Church and never imbibed Manichaean teachings.
PETER WALDO : Founder of the Waldenses
The sect owed its origin to Peter Waldo (d. 1216), known in France as Valdes. Little is known about Waldo’s life, but it is clear that he was a prosperous merchant in Lyons who suddenly divested himself of his wealth in order to pursue a life of “evangelical perfection,” which, to medieval Catholics, meant following the example of Christ, including the Savior’s poverty.
WALDENSES BEFORE WALDO : Do They Exist?
Although there is unanimous agreement among reputable scholars that the Waldenses originated with the work of Waldo, and despite the fact that modern Waldense historians themselves concur with this opinion, successionists of various affiliations have inducted them into the line of “true” churches which have maintained Gospel purity since New Testament times. As one might expect, the Waldenses have been claimed as Baptists (and Plymouth Brethren by E.H. Broadbent, and Seventh-day Adventists by Ellen G. White, and others).
Those who attempt to establish a pedigree for the Waldenses anterior to Waldo himself often refer to the work of Sir Samuel Morland, a 17th-century English author and diplomat who claimed to have found evidence that verifies the great antiquity of the sect. [4] Morland reproduced documents supposedly from the year 1120, which, he said, show that the Waldenses (French, -Vaudois-) had the scriptures for about forty years prior to the translation that Waldo obtained.
The documents in question, however, show the Bible divided into chapters, and such divisions did not appear before about 1250 or later. [5] The confession of faith produced by Morland makes it appear that the Waldenses held to a strongly Protestant-evangelical theology centuries before Luther. It is now known that this document originated in the 16th century. It contains teachings of Martin Bucer, reformer of Strasbourg, copied almost verbatim. [6]
Despite their usual aversion to Roman Catholic sources, successionists have not hesitated to cite a remark by Reinerius Saccho that the Waldenses movement is ancient,
“for some SAY that it has existed from the time of Sylvester, some from the time of the apostles.”
It is clear, however, that Reinerius intended only to report a belief held mistakenly by some people. The inquisitor did not accept the legend of Waldense antiquity himself. [7]
No evidence has been found which reveals a Waldense Church prior to Waldo, and neither Waldo himself nor modern Waldense historians ever asserted such claims. Scholars hostile to the Roman Catholic Church have concurred with historians of that body in affirming Waldo as founder of the sect that still bears his name. [8]
A fitting commentary on the pursuit of pedigree has been provided by Harold S. Bender, a leading Mennonite scholar of the 20th century:
“The tempting and romantic theory of apostolic succession from the apostles down to the Anabaptists through successive Old Evangelical groups, which has been very popular with those among the Mennonites and Baptists who feel the need of such an apostolic succession, always includes the Waldenses as the last link before the Anabaptists. It has…no basis in fact.” [9]
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dreamfleur
Guest
Thank you.
I’m learning more everyday. Unfortunately most people don’t research what they are taught and merely accept it because it sounds right. I had read about Peter Waldo and wondered how they traced this back to before him…
I’m learning more everyday. Unfortunately most people don’t research what they are taught and merely accept it because it sounds right. I had read about Peter Waldo and wondered how they traced this back to before him…
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Michelle_Arnold
Guest
Just to clarify, my links to Seventh-day Adventism are somewhat tenuous. Although my mother’s family are hardcore Adventists, involved in both ministry and missions, my parents were pretty much non-churchgoing during my childhood and I wasn’t baptized until I chose to become Catholic. Basically, that means I have a Seventh-day Adventist background but I’m not really an “ex-SDA.”
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chero23
Guest
I wouldn’t put to much emphasize on the teachings of the SDA. One of their first leaders, Miller, actually preached that the world would end between 1843-1844. If you have the Bible, Jesus tells us that nobody knows when the world but God himself. So when people try to predict the end of the World, their trying to be in the same level as God.
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paulrxp
Guest
Amen, perhaps some Christian denominations point this out, but I like how the Church empahsizes this and reminds us to focus our faith and energies on the things we know and what we have to do before the savior returns.
The Bible is pretty clear on this matter:
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 13:32-37[/BIBLEDRB]
I’m pleased to report that my 3 very nice SDA friends at the tennis courts have toned down their rhetoric against the Catholic Church. They have politely shunned me when I bring up not just Church history, but history in general, especially with regards to the Bible.
Anyways, I’ve been learning from you Semi-SDA, Ex-SDA considering Catholics, Catholic with SDA-galpal(sorry if I overlooked anyone) I’ve let my SDA friends at the park know that any snipes at the Church will be met with a respectful, kind, loving response.
Due to my deficient memory, I have prepared my speech which I have dubbed: Responsorial to Park SDA’s in the form of a Google doc on my smartphone, complete with talking points and snippets which I’ll cut and paste from these threads to defend our loving Mother Church. Please, lets try to be as factual and as fair as possible. Not just out of respect to both faiths, but also so that I don’t fumble the ball on the 1 yard line
PS I too found Michelles links very helpful. I’m sure I’ll have questions if my SDA un-shun me(don’t even know if that’s a word, anyways I’m Catholic so it’s ok for me to make stuff up)
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pablope
Guest
I do not know whether to…Amen, perhaps some Christian denominations point this out, but I like how the Church empahsizes this and reminds us to focus our faith and energies on the things we know and what we have to do before the savior returns.
The Bible is pretty clear on this matter:
Due to my deficient memory, I have prepared my speech which I have dubbed: Responsorial to Park SDA’s in the form of a Google doc on my smartphone, complete with talking points and snippets which I’ll cut and paste from these threads to defend our loving Mother Church. Please, lets try to be as factual and as fair as possible. Not just out of respect to both faiths, but also so that I don’t fumble the ball on the 1 yard line
PS I too found Michelles links very helpful. I’m sure I’ll have questions if my SDA un-shun me(don’t even know if that’s a word, anyways I’m Catholic so it’s ok for me to make stuff up)
or or 
you rolled them all into one…Anyone…how about this for starters…where is “shunning” in the Bible?
Is “shunning” the mark of a true Christian?
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HELLOTOALL
Guest
well my best friend was born and raised SDA,but is longer practicing it.we went to mexico city a week ago.he was just mermerized,as almost every block there was an ancient catholic church,i mean centuries old!he couldnt stop taking photos .mentioned that in country ,wher he was born ,sdas were prohibited from ceblerating christmas,easter .he was in disbelief that sda’s doctrines vary from country to country . anyway about ayear ago or so ,there were several ex -sda guests on EWTN’s “the journey home” program.one of them was a young couple,whose were 5th ? generation sdas ,before they converted to the CC.
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dreamfleur
Guest
As far as I know certain “conferences” decide to “do things their own way” as opposed to what the “General Conference” states they should. I have heard that the west coast is WAY more liberal than the east coast (just to state a difference here in the US). Also, hispanic churches tend to be A LOT more conservative than the Anglo ones ( I have no idea as to how other congregations are… Chinese, Filipino, Romanian etc… just to mention a few).
But yes, I find that there is a lot of divide even within this one denomination. The ordination of women and letting homosexuals be teachers in the church I know are one area of “stress” where certain churches follow one belief and others follow the other. I know of one church that has a section in the sanctuary where the homosexual couples sit, and everyone knows this.There are also churches that have gone so far from what is believed by the General Conference that they are removed from it altogether and start their own “independent” churches while continuing to call themselves SDA (they generally take all of their members with them from the mother church).
Again, I wouldn’t be surprised that your friend came from where holidays were not celebrated, I would guess that maybe this area of the world magnified some of EGW’s teaching and took it to an extreme, maybe connecting those holidays to being pagan. I wouldn’t be surprised.
B
bitznbitez
Guest
SDA Hospitals were doing abortions before Roe-v-Wade. In fact I think they did the first legal abortion in the US in Hawaii. Back in the 70’s or 80’s they were warning in their official magazine about not cooperating with the Catholic led push to ban abortion. They do have a conservative wing that they placate with that bit about its wrong and you can only do it if you think hard and make enough harumphing sounds first.
I was SDA from birth thru mid 20’s. To the OP what is it you want to know ?
I wandered thru baptistland/nondenom, peeked at Orthodoxy, a brief stint among Lutherans, and finally Catholic. It was kinda a slow slide home from one end to the other.
Family is the biggest obstacle. I mean when you and your wife are both multi generation SDA and progeny of church employees and then you run off and sign up with, as they call Catholics, “the antichrist” oh my.
The thing that was the push that got me started was Wisdom of Solomon Chapter 2.
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dreamfleur
Guest
Thank you for responding. I see your wanderings and thought about wandering myself ( in order to weed everything out in the process) but somehow I am here and maybe I won’t need to wander at all. I too come from generations and generations of SDA’s. I went through their schools from K-University. I grew up in their bubble and even worked for them. But now I am married to a Catholic and although my intentions upon marrying him were to convert him to SDA…the tables have been turned on me and it is I that am having questions.
My questions would be about not only the differences between Protestant beliefs (which I believe many here have answered) but also specific SDA beliefs as well.
- State of the Dead… SDA believe soul sleep
- Sabbath… you know
- Mary and the Saints… again tied into Soul sleep and idolatry
- Purgatory and prayers for the dead… how do you know???
Thank you again.
- Status