Any experts on John of the Cross here?

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franklinstower

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I have some very specific questions about John of the Cross and Catholic spirituality more broadly but the answers must be definitive. I really need to speak with someone who truly understands what John of the Cross is saying.

I know there are people on this forum that have this understanding. Could anyone give me the names of users who do or if you are reading this please reply and then Ill state my questions?
 
I think your title asking for “experts” is delaying responses. I am familiar and understand much of his teaching, since I am a secular Carmelite. We study the works of our Carmelite saints in community, to better understand their teachings. I can’t say we are experts, though, but perhaps willing to give it a shot.

I believe forum member, @Dorothy, is also a Carmelite and may be willing to share.
 
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Yes, I am a Third Order Lay Carmelite and over the years have been to many retreats (silent) where we had conferences on the Carmelite saints. Also, during our monthly meetings we study books written by Carmelite saints and discuss the chapters and share with one another as well.
I don’t consider myself an expert, but have come to understand about the spiritual journey that one takes to become closer to the Lord.

I would be happy to share any insights I may have on questions that are asked by the OP.
 
Thank you both for responding.

I am confused about what John of the Cross means about the purification of the senses in both nights.

Does he mean that the further you travel on the spiritual path the LESS you feel God’s presence.

I ask this as a person who has spent 3 hours a day in prayer for the last 25 years. I am experiencing a growing awareness of Gods presence and I can feel it descending upon me and while walking around too but my spiritual advisor is convinced that over time the felt sense of God’s presence goes away.

I had ten years of feeling it in an extremely powerful way and then the last just over ten years it was more dry and desert like but now it is coming back increasingly but my spiritual advisor thinks that it won’t because the senses have been so purified that it won’t be a felt presence.

I am confused by this as it is not matching my experience. My spiritual advisor is using John of the Cross as the guide.
 
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franklinstower said:
Does he mean that the further you travel on the spiritual path the LESS you feel God’s presence.
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In the night of the spirit, where there is further purification of one’s deepest roots, the aridity may last for years, with occasional brief refreshment of God’s presence.

God prepared me for this in an awesome way. As I was driving during a most unusual and extremely heavy fog, I was unable to see but a few feet ahead of me. Naturally, I was fearful that I might miss seeing a red light or anything else around me. It was really scary, but I continued to have just enough light to travel to the next block.

Taking this image spiritually, I understood that I would undergo something similar spiritually, but to trust that I would always have just enough light from God to get me through. It has been arid for me for many years. I remember Mother Teresa’s biography stating that she was in darkness for 40 years.

Despite the lack of consolation, I am finding that my sins are far less numerous and unhealthy habits have been greatly subdued. That is the only gauge I can use to understand what is going on spiritually. The good effects are there.
franklinstower said:
I had ten years of feeling it in an extremely powerful way and then the last just over ten years it was more dry and desert like but now it is coming back increasingly but my spiritual adviser thinks that it won’t because the senses have been so purified that it won’t be a felt presence.
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Whether or not you continue to experience God’s presence, is for God to regulate, and for you to trust and not doubt how He leads you. Maybe be less analytical as to what stage you are at, or what will happen next. 🙂
 
I appreciate the response however I don’t believe the issue is about being analytical or not. It is more just a search for accuracy and truth. This problem is with my spiritual advisor having a very definite opinion about this topic ie that the higher stages do manifest in a less sensory way. He has read John of the Cross but has not read Teresa of Avila.

It seems abundantly clear from the literature by Teresa that the higher stages, far from being less sensory, are in fact intensely sensory. Yet most of the people I meet in fellow Catholics seem to have a real bias towards NOT feeling it.

I respect that having been through a ten year period like it but cannot accept from the reading of many of the saints or from my own experience that this is the only way it can manifest.

It seems that certain personality types will and do progress towards love without much mystical experience along the way. I have witnessed that and value as equal to a more mystical approach, but it is also my experience that many have a ton of very intense experiences in the beginning AND on the other side of the desert experience.

The first ten years of my Christian path were exceedingly intense in this way. I can relate to much of what Teresa describes in stages 5 6 and 7, then in it all went away and my path unfolded more like what she writes in 1 2 and 3 for about ten years but is now growing back up slowly into a similar version of what is was like in the first ten years.

This issue I am having is that my, very dear to me, spiritual advisor has only read John of the Cross and has the impression that the higher stages are ALWAYS less sensory and I suspect that this is theologically inaccurate.

The thing is this notion, that I am pretty sure is mistaken seems to be VERY common among those who study John of the Cross and I want to understand why that is, as it would be a pretty serious error in thinking if it was widespread and may even be leading to a self fulfilling prophecy in some people. I suspect this notion has negatively affected my path in small ways.

This is why I am asking of there are any “experts” who know definitively what Catholic understanding is on this topic. I know there are some experts on John of the Cross here but have forgotten their user names.
 
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We are all different personalities and Our Lord knows when to give consolations and when to withhold them. It is refreshing to have consolations, but not to seek them and feel deprived when we do not.

I am aware, from my studies in the Lay Carmelites, that when we do not experience consolations we should not be concerned about that, but to continue in our prayer life and activities to please the Lord. In this way we are maturing in the Lord.

The Lord knows when to “let up” and allow us to feel His Presence.
 
This problem is with my spiritual advisor having a very definite opinion about this topic ie that the higher stages do manifest in a less sensory way.
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Have you read his “Dark Night of the Soul?” This is most likely why you are receiving that advice from your SA. Maybe it would help to read it in order to understand where he is coming from?

In the end, the Holy Spirit is your constant guide, and will never fail to bring you all the way to full union, if you desire it and remain faithful to His promptings - with or without God’s consolation.
 
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I have read it yes but in no way can I consider it the ONLY word on spirituality.
 
At least having read it, you understand where your SA is coming from. I agree there are other spiritual masters that will help you sort it out.
  1. The Three Ages of the Interior Life (Garrigou Lagrange, OP)
  2. Fire Within (you mentioned this previously) Fr. Dubay
  3. Anything by St. Teresa of Avila
  4. Spiritual Exercises (St. Ignatius of Loyola)
If your SA is not directing you to abandon whatever practices you do now, then continue, and don’t let searching out the “stage” you may be in become a hindrance to greater freedom and purity of spirit.
 
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CROSS

Stein, Edith. The Science of the Cross (The Collected Works of Edith Stein Vol. 6) . ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.

Peace
 
“The higher the degree of union of love to which God desires to lead them, the more intense and prolonged the purification will be. For even proficients have many habitual imperfections from which the night of the spirit must free them. And the senses are only purified along with the spirit.”

Stein, Edith. The Science of the Cross (The Collected Works of Edith Stein Vol. 6) . ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.
 
I mentioned The Three Ages of the Interior Life as being very helpful. I would suggest Volume 2 for you, for it is the Illuminative Way of Proficients. It may be read on line here. You can tell from the table of contents under the index whether this is something you may find very helpful.
 
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Thank you. I will definitely check that out.

You may be interested in this response I received via email from a contemplative organization to the same question.

Although you didn’t exactly state what your question is below, I sense it is the general confusion about the different descriptions of the spiritual journey you are encountering in various literature and from your advisor. In my experience, both personally and in conversations with many contemplative practitioners, the answer is Yes or All of the Above! In other words, God is so very personal with each one of us that each person’s journey is unique and goes through their own phases of depth, consolations, dryness, nights, desolation, etc. And the journey never ends. Reading accounts of other’s journey’s can be helpful, especially to mark similar signposts in your own journey, but they are subjective descriptions, and sometimes only represent a period of time and not the complete arc of a person’s life in God.
 
franklinstower said:
And the journey never ends. Reading accounts of other’s journey’s can be helpful, especially to mark similar signposts in your own journey, but they are subjective descriptions, and sometimes only represent a period of time and not the complete arc of a person’s life in God.
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It would seem you now have your answer. Thanks for sharing with us. God’s many blessings be with you in this new year
 
That was an excellent response you got from the contemplative organization.
 
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