any former mormons out there?

[JonathanKinsman]

How about coming to the conclusion that it is true!

That would be a good reason, wouldn’t it?

zerinus

Hey Zerinus! I thought you quit when you refused to answer direct questions about your belief that LDS is the one, true religion for all of mankind.

Glad you’re back!

Question: Besides the burning in my bosom that Mormonism is intrinsically inconsistent (forever changing its core beliefs); nationalistic (white Americans as the inheritors of the 13th tribe’s “Hebrewness” and black people suffering the mark of evil in their dark complected skins); and outside traditional Christian beliefs and customs;** WHAT EVIDENCE LEADS TO CONCLUDE IT IS TRUE???**

 

[zerinus]

Hey Zerinus! I thought you quit when you refused to answer direct questions about your belief that LDS is the one, true religion for all of mankind.

I don’t know what you are talking about. I have no recollection of “refusing to answer direct questions about my belief that LDS is the one, true religion for all of mankind;” neither in my wildest dream would I do so! Of course the LDS Church is the “one, true religion for all mankind!”

Glad you’re back!

I hadn’t gone anywhere! Are you sure you aren’t confusing me with someone else?

Question: . . . WHAT EVIDENCE LEADS TO CONCLUDE IT IS TRUE???

The testimony of the Holy Ghost!

zerinus

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Zerinus:

Look up your threads with my threads.

I ask you specific questions. After my postings, you disappear. That’s what I am talking about.

As to the Holy Ghost, your church’s beliefs and history give the lie to your reliance on divine inspiration.

Mormon doctrine was not concerned with the Trinity (including the Holy Ghost) until the early 1970s (before you were born, no doubt). Study your own ‘excommunicated’ members who have written extensively on the contradictions and goofy beliefs of Mormonism.

If you want a good give and take discussion on specific issues (and I have hundreds) on why Mormonism is a cult and not a Christian denomination, then I’m your man.

If you want to spout statements like, “God told me so,” and “the Holy Ghost came to me in a dream and told me so,” then you are wasting your time here, Zerinus.

 

[zerinus]

Look up your threads with my threads.

I ask you specific questions. After my postings, you disappear. That’s what I am talking about.

I have no recollection of doing that. If you know of any threads, please give me a link.

As to the Holy Ghost, your church’s beliefs and history give the lie to your reliance on divine inspiration.

I see no evidence of that; neither have you shown me any.

Mormon doctrine was not concerned with the Trinity (including the Holy Ghost) until the early 1970s (before you were born, no doubt).

I don’t know what you are talking about. I have no evidence of such thing.

Study your own ‘excommunicated’ members who have written extensively on the contradictions and goofy beliefs of Mormonism.

I do not study nor trust what “excommunicated” members have written.

If you want a good give and take discussion on specific issues (and I have hundreds) on why Mormonism is a cult and not a Christian denomination, then I’m your man.

So far all that I have seen from you have been all talk and no substance. When you have decided to back up your assertions with evidence we may have something to talk about; but frankly, judging by your poor performance thus far, I am not terribly optimistic.

If you want to spout statements like, “God told me so,” and “the Holy Ghost came to me in a dream and told me so,” then you are wasting your time here, Zerinus.

I have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. What are you going to do about that?

zerinus

 

[flameburns623]

OK. I see now. The DNA evidence has to do with the ancestry of the Native American tribes. I’ll admit up front that I have never looked into this one.

It was my impression that all the now-existing Native American tribes, both North and South American, were of Asian descent.

The descendants of the BoM “Lost Tribes” who journeyed to the Americas died out, didn’t they? After they buried the Golden Plates?

Nan

The Book of Mormon is the story to TWO groups of peoples, primarily: the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Lamanites were the disobedient descendants of Father Lehi, the Nephites were the (generally) more-obedient descendants. (Lehi was the ‘prophet’ who attempted to warn Jerusalem of impending doom and who, when rejected, led his family into the wilderness and thence to the New World. Laman was the oldest of four sons of Lehi; Nephi was the third son as memory serves me, with one younger brother and several sisters). At times the Nephites apostatised and were ‘chastised’ by God using the Lamanites as scourge. Ultimately the Nephites apostatised beyond all hope of repentance and the Lamanites were permitted to utterly annihilate them.

The Lamanites supposedly remained, albeit in wickedness and idolatry. For more than a century they were believed by Mormons universally to be the forebears of all of the Native American and many of the Polynesian peoples. That has become increasingly an untenable idea as DNA evidence from various Native tribes increasingly shows no link between their ancestry and the purported middle-eastern ancestry that should have been the heritage of descendants of Father Lehi.

 

[rmcmullan]

rmcmullan:

Yoohoo! Anybody home? If you don’t want to answer through the thread, send it to me via message. I am interested in how you came to be LDS

Thanks

What, me?

Okay, that’s sort of a personal experience and I don’t feel right going through it in much detail here. So, to be brief, it sounded right to me as soon as I heard it and the more I heard of it, the more it struck a chord in me. I came from an RC family which is French-Canadian, back many generations and I went to Catholic school so I knew my catechism fairly well (not as well as many of the people here though) but I had trouble relating to it. I still feel pretty much the same. Listening to the Mormon missionaries just really struck me as finally hearing the full truth for the first time. I still feel pretty much the same about that too!

 

[dorothy_smith]

I have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. What are you going to do about that?

zerinus

Hello zerinus,

What was the testimony of the Holy Ghost? Can you be more specific?

thanks - dorothy

 

[zerinus]

Hello zerinus,

What was the testimony of the Holy Ghost? Can you be more specific?

No! The testimony of the Holy Ghost is not something that can be defined or described or transmitted in human terms. It is a certain calm conviction and assurance that you experience in your mind and in your heart that only you know about if you have experienced it, but cannot communicate to someone else. It is what Peter had experienced then the Lord said to him: “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). I could no more explain that experience to you than Peter would have been able to; but it is no less real.

zerinus

 

[rmcmullan]

No! The testimony of the Holy Ghost is not something that can be defined or described or transmitted in human terms. It is a certain calm conviction and assurance that you experience in your mind and in your heart that only you know about if you have experienced it, but cannot communicate to someone else. It is what Peter had experienced then the Lord said to him: “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). I could no more explain that experience to you than Peter would have been able to; but it is no less real.

zerinus

Yes, I do believe Zerinus has nailed it.

 

[dorothy_smith]

No! The testimony of the Holy Ghost is not something that can be defined or described or transmitted in human terms. It is a certain calm conviction and assurance that you experience in your mind and in your heart that only you know about if you have experienced it, but cannot communicate to someone else. It is what Peter had experienced then the Lord said to him: “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). I could no more explain that experience to you than Peter would have been able to; but it is no less real.

zerinus

I wish I had an experience like that. You must consider yourself extremely privileged.

Was it a one-off experience?

thanks - dorothy

 

[Tonks40]

No! The testimony of the Holy Ghost is not something that can be defined or described or transmitted in human terms. It is a certain calm conviction and assurance that you experience in your mind and in your heart that only you know about if you have experienced it, but cannot communicate to someone else. It is what Peter had experienced then the Lord said to him: “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). I could no more explain that experience to you than Peter would have been able to; but it is no less real.

zerinus

Wow - this is what I experienced when I came back to the Church and the Real Presence…interesting!

Guess truth is subjective…

 

[majick275]

Ok. I see now. The DNA evidence has to do with the ancestry of the Native American tribes. I’ll admit up front that I have never looked into this one.

It was my impression that all the now-existing Native American tribes, both North and South American, were of Asian descent.

The descendents of the BoM “Lost Tribes” who journeyed to the Americas died out, didn’t they? After they buried the Golden Plates?

Nan

no only the “nephites” and “jaredites” died out. The “lamanites” are said by mormons to be the “principal ancestors” of the American Indians. (numerous LDS prophets have also claimed that all pre-columbian americans and polynesians are of “lamanite” origin)

Science has PROVEN that native americans (both north and south) are, as you said, of asiatic origin.

 

[majick275]

No! The testimony of the Holy Ghost is not something that can be defined or described or transmitted in human terms. It is a certain calm conviction and assurance that you experience in your mind and in your heart that only you know about if you have experienced it, but cannot communicate to someone else. It is what Peter had experienced then the Lord said to him: “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). I could no more explain that experience to you than Peter would have been able to; but it is no less real.

zerinus

and jim jones thought he had it. So did David Koresh, millions of muslims, benny hinns followers and many others. The Holy Spirit IS real but he is also often imitated by Satan. Don’t be fooled the REAL witness of the Spirit testifies of truth and thus can be verified by scripture and tradition. That which contradicts the word of God cannot be true. Therefore any “spiritual experience” which testifies the “truth” of what we know to be false is satanic in origin.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Hey Zerinus !

Now that I am back from the Mall Wars with my wife…

Here are the Mormon problems you never address:

1. The Book of Mormon
A. No golden tablets; no “seer stone;” no proof of “Egyptian
hierglyphics” to support the BoM ‘first’ English
translation.
B. BoM describes a huge pre-Columbian culture which
supposedly existed in the Americas for centuries, going
into great detail about the ‘Nephites’ and ‘Lamanites,’
who were Jews that built massive civilizations, used iron
technology, knew clocks, had horses and honeybees.
They also created great works of art and fought large
scale battles resulting in tens of thousands of dead
warriors culminating with the destruction of the so-called
Nephites in 421 AD. Trouble is: there is NO historical
** or **archeological evidence to support the BoM. Even
the Smithsonian (check their website) issued a letter
saying that the BoM has “no historical reality
whatsoever in Meso-American archeology.”
C. Joseph Smith’s claim of translating the BoM under divine
inspiration is ridiculous when whole passages taken
from the KJV of Isaiah are included in the first 40 years
of the BoM’s publication. Wow, Smith wrote like a
Jacobean at Oxford! Pretty good for an illiterate farmer.
Sounds like Mohammed in America to me.

2. “Fullness of the Gospel” for the BoM
A. Doctrines of Salvation defines “by fullness of the gospel
is meant all the ordinances and principles that pertain to
the exaltation of the celestial kingdom.” (Vol 1, page
160) Trouble is: if the BoM contains all the **
** ordinances** and principles that pertain to the gospel,**
** why isn’t **** Mormon doctrine listed in the BoM?** The
Mormon doctrine that God is nothing more that an
“exalted man with a body of flesh and bones” appears no
where in the BoM. Nor does the assertion (oops, I mean
Mormon doctrine) that Lucifer is a “spirit brother” of
Jesus.

Here’s a good beginning for you, Zerinus, to refute my assertions. And don’t bother asking the Holy Spirit for help on this one. You’re on your own, brother.

Pax Christi (even to our non-Christian Mormon brethren)

 

[zerinus]

I wish I had an experience like that. You must consider yourself extremely privileged.

Not at all. Every convert into the Church is encouraged to seek that experience, and they do. No one should want to join our Church without it. There is a promise made in the Book of Mormon that everyone that seeks that experience in sincerety will find it:

Moroni 10:

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Millions have put that proise to the test, and found it to be true.

Was it a one-off experience?

No! When you receive the Holy Ghost a your constant companion, you will be able to discern and know the truth at all times:

John 16:

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

Moroni 10:

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Here are the Mormon problems you never address:

1. The Book of Mormon
A. No golden tablets; no “seer stone;” no proof of “Egyptian
hierglyphics” to support the BoM ‘first’ English
translation.

No stone tables of Moses either; but the Spirit of the Lord bears witness to us that it is true. The same goes for the Book of Mormon.

2. “Fullness of the Gospel” for the BoM
A. Doctrines of Salvation defines “by fullness of the gospel
is meant all the ordinances and principles that pertain to
the exaltation of the celestial kingdom.” (Vol 1, page
160) Trouble is: if the BoM contains all the
ordinances and principles that pertain to the gospel,
why isn’t Mormon doctrine listed in the BoM?

That is not the “fullness of the gospel”. That is defined in the Book of Mormon and in other LDS scripture in these verses: 3 Nephi 27:13-21; D&C 33:11-13; 39:5-6

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Error

 

[rmcmullan]

I wish I had an experience like that. You must consider yourself extremely privileged.

Was it a one-off experience?

thanks - dorothy

I have often wondered about it. My wife didn’t go through any of the same sort of thing (she’s a life long Mormon) but I know it happens, probably more frequently than you would suppose. When I had the privilege to be a missionary (long ago, in my youth!), a lot of people would share their spiritual experiences with us and they’re fairly common. But a lot of people don’t get those watershed experiences. Instead of a waterfall, they get a brook that never dries up. Not as dramatic but it serves the same end. Okay, it’s an analogy and all analogies will eventually break down but it seems like a good way to explain it.

I am thinking of two stories from the Book of Mormon. Each story involves a prophet who had been jailed and a group of people who they had been preaching to had come into the jail to torment them. In one case, the wrath of God came upon them, the jail collapsed, the prophets escaped and their captors died. scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/14/17-18,22-23,27-29#17. In the other story, instead of the wrath of God, the Holy Ghost came down and they were encircled about with flames and spoke with angels. They were all converted. scriptures.lds.org/en/hel/5/23-24,43-44#23. What was the difference? Well, it was in the people themselves.

I think those dramatic experiences are more common in people who need to, uh, cover a lot of ground in a short time. But not everybody needs or responds to that sort of thing.

It was not a one-of experience. I have felt the HG many times (even as a Catholic!) and many times since though rarely as strong. I am guessing that you have too.

 

[rmcmullan]

What was the testimony of the Holy Ghost? Can you be more specific?

thanks - dorothy

I wanted to give you an example that might help because it shows how subtle the influence of the HG can be. The bishop of our ward was leaving and they sent some people over to interview some of the priesthood to pick a replacement. As part of that interview, they showed me a long list of people and asked me who I thought would make a good bishop. I looked at it and as soon as I came across a certain name, I tossed the list down and said, “This is the man!” and I was very firm about it. They next asked me why and when I thought about I realized I had no idea why. I could not give any reason at all but still felt very strong it was the right choice. I left that interview wondering why the heck I had said that because believe me I am not a touchy-feely person. A couple of weeks later we got a new bishop and it was the guy who I had picked but didn’t know why.

This is sort of what I mean by your heart leads and your brain catches up. If there’s something that just seems so right but you can’t say why, it is likely the HG. But you have to pray and verify that feeling. If it turns out not to be, you’ll gradually forget about it. If it’s right you’ll feel the old BITB (burning in the bosom). This works regardless of your church affiliation!

 

[truthsilence]

I am a former Mormon. I converted to RCC this past Easter.

The reason I had for leaving the LDS church and ultimately embracing the Catholic faith was that I didn’t feel like I was really worshipping Christ in the LDS church. I felt like everthing was about me, or the person sitting next to me, or some other person. My blessings for doing this, my blessings for doing that. Listening to all the blessings everyone would receive through paying their tithing, magnifying their callings, going to the temple, being obedient, on and on and on. I’d sit there in church and crave a real worship experience.

Finally I realized I was so empty spiritually that I knew I had to find a way to worship Christ or eventually lose what little faith I had left. I began looking around where I live for another church to visit. I looked on the internet for churches in my area. Catholicism what not even on my radar. I was driving in my car one evening, and the thought came into my mind “try going to a Catholic church”.

I believe God actually took my hand and lead me home. It’s true, the friendshipping and socializing experience isn’t even close to what the Mormon church has. But I sense more the importance of reaching out to the poor, feeding the hungry and supporting the financial needs to keep the church running. Not for any return benefit to myself.

Most importantly I get to really worship along side others, singing praises to the Lord. The entire mass is about Him and nothing else. This is what my spirit was longing for all those many years.