any former mormons out there?

[truthsilence]

I think most everyone notices this, but there’s only so much one can do. The threads are long already. If we burrow down into every error of his, then they will just become impossible.

I believe that Z is an honest and well meaning person; It is Mormonism that is untenable from an argumentative point of view. The good news is, he is on fire for the Lord. He’s not apathetic. Apathetic people aren’t looking for the Lord, period. Z is on fire. That’s a good thing. It’s only too bad that he’s wasting all that energy and intelligence defending the indefensible.

All good points Allweather.

 

[rmcmullan]

We are so far off the original topic. I would be interested if somebody could come up with a Catholic version of the diagrams posted by Karin or Nan S. The plan of salvation or eternal progression or whatever you want to call it. I have a picture in my head what it (the Catholic version) would be like but is there something already existing or do one of you have a copy of Visio you could whip one together?

 

[Karin]

We are so far off the original topic. I would be interested if somebody could come up with a Catholic version of the diagrams posted by Karin or Nan S. The plan of salvation or eternal progression or whatever you want to call it. I have a picture in my head what it (the Catholic version) would be like but is there something already existing or do one of you have a copy of Visio you could whip one together?

Last I checked…the Church does not believe in multiple God’s, polytheism, so there would not be a similar chart on EP as the LDS have…it would seem that the LDS are the only ones that believe what the lovely flow charts show

If you are interested in how Catholics view salvation, there are some good articles here…
catholic.com/library/salvation.asp

 

[christianley]

I am a former Mormon. I converted to RCC this past Easter.

The reason I had for leaving the LDS church and ultimately embracing the Catholic faith was that I didn’t feel like I was really worshipping Christ in the LDS church. I felt like everthing was about me, or the person sitting next to me, or some other person. My blessings for doing this, my blessings for doing that. Listening to all the blessings everyone would receive through paying their tithing, magnifying their callings, going to the temple, being obedient, on and on and on. I’d sit there in church and crave a real worship experience.

Finally I realized I was so empty spiritually that I knew I had to find a way to worship Christ or eventually lose what little faith I had left. I began looking around where I live for another church to visit. I looked on the internet for churches in my area. Catholicism what not even on my radar. I was driving in my car one evening, and the thought came into my mind “try going to a Catholic church”.

I believe God actually took my hand and lead me home. It’s true, the friendshipping and socializing experience isn’t even close to what the Mormon church has. But I sense more the importance of reaching out to the poor, feeding the hungry and supporting the financial needs to keep the church running. Not for any return benefit to myself.

Most importantly I get to really worship along side others, singing praises to the Lord. The entire mass is about Him and nothing else. This is what my spirit was longing for all those many years.

I just converted to Catholicism from Mormonism last Easter as well. It’s been the best thing I’ve ever done in my life!

 

[Allweather]

We are so far off the original topic. I would be interested if somebody could come up with a Catholic version of the diagrams posted by Karin or Nan S. The plan of salvation or eternal progression or whatever you want to call it. I have a picture in my head what it (the Catholic version) would be like but is there something already existing or do one of you have a copy of Visio you could whip one together?

I’ve never seen anything like that on the Catholic side. I have seen diagrams on the Protestant fundamentalist side, though. I recall, 30+ years ago, reading things like the Hal Lindsey books (Late, Great, Planet Earth, etc) a few diagrams in those books. While I feel that those Protestant things are orthodox, they are given over to the same sort of obsession with the unknowable that Mormonism is, and therefore are not of much value. Protestants, especially fundamentalists, and of course Mormons and JWs who are Protestant-derived, are very obsessed with what happens in Heaven and Hell, how these “places” are constructed, the highways between them, who is going there, and who isn’t. I never cease to be amazed at the time and energy expended on trying to know the unknowable. They even draw maps, for crying out loud!

Catholic teachings do not go into very much detail about the afterlife. The plan of salvation involves leaning on Jesus, trusting that his everlasting love and protection will see us through to the beatific vision in Heaven. We aren’t to be concerned with details on the nature and structure of Heaven or Hell. The Bible is rather vague on these things, and I’m certain this is by God’s design. If he wanted us to know all the details, he would’ve provided them through the Church, and through what is written in sacred scripture. The route to God and salvation is through the sacraments, received with faith and obedience, leaving all the work and details up to our Good Shepherd, who will certainly take us home on the last day.

 

[rmcmullan]

Last I checked…the Church does not believe in multiple God’s, polytheism, so there would not be a similar chart on EP as the LDS have…it would seem that the LDS are the only ones that believe what the lovely flow charts show
QUOTE]

I am thinking of a picture that shows Earth, heaven, hell and purgatory. We’ll leave out limbo and replace it with the baptism of desire. There’d be a line from earth to heaven for the saints, a line from earth to purgatory for non-saints and then from purgatory to heaven. Also a line to hell for people who have died with unrepented mortal sin. I think the baptism of desire line goes between earth and purgatory. That where guys like me and Zerinus go, people who aren’t Christian but have that desire in their hearts . If that sounds right, I do have a copy of Visio.

 

[Karin]

Karin;1782096:

Last I checked…the Church does not believe in multiple God’s, polytheism, so there would not be a similar chart on EP as the LDS have…it would seem that the LDS are the only ones that believe what the lovely flow charts show
QUOTE]

I am thinking of a picture that shows Earth, heaven, hell and purgatory. We’ll leave out limbo and replace it with the baptism of desire. There’d be a line from earth to heaven for the saints, a line from earth to purgatory for non-saints and then from purgatory to heaven. Also a line to hell for people who have died with unrepented mortal sin. I think the baptism of desire line goes between earth and purgatory. That where guys like me and Zerinus go, people who aren’t Christian but have that desire in their hearts . If that sounds right, I do have a copy of Visio.

may i usggest you read the link I sent you or perhaps Allweathers post right above yours

 

[rmcmullan]

Allweather, that would sound okay if you would accept Mormon baptism but since you don’t, I am left to wonder what my fate is. Especially my “missionary companion” Zerinus who has never received Catholic/Protestant baptism. So are all our good works to come to naught?

I must disagree on the knowing the unknownable part. It all goes back to the open or closed revelation discussion. My point is you are quick to criticize Mormon beliefs even when you have nothing to contradict them.

 

[Allweather]

I think the baptism of desire line goes between earth and purgatory. That where guys like me and Zerinus go, people who aren’t Christian but have that desire in their hearts . If that sounds right, I do have a copy of Visio.

Only God knows who will ultimately go anywhere. It is not for men to say, or to presume to draw maps showing routes of travel. Heaven (and its suburb, Purgatory) and Hell do not exist in space and time.

As for the baptism of desire, my own opinion is that desire isn’t enough to get you there. All men desire Heaven. God puts enough of himself into every created being that that being desires to be home with its creator. Even though the desire be buried under mounds of sinful disobedience, it is nevertheless still there. It is, as you mentioned, unrepented mortal sin that threatens to keep us separated from God. According to Fr Hardon S.J. “Mortal sin is a turning away from God because of a seriously inordinate adherence to creatures that causes grave injury to a person’s rational nature and to the social order, and deprives the sinner of a right to heaven.” Moreoever, in order for an actual sin to be mortal, three conditions, grave matter, full knowledge, and willful act, must exist. Absent full knowledge, then the sin is not mortal. Even so, ONLY GOD knows. Only Christ stands at the gate judging every soul. Examine your conscience, throw yourself on the mercy of almighty God, and let Him work out the details.

 

[christianley]

Allweather, that would sound okay if you would accept Mormon baptism but since you don’t, I am left to wonder what my fate is. Especially my “missionary companion” Zerinus who has never received Catholic/Protestant baptism. So are all our good works to come to naught?

I must disagree on the knowing the unknownable part. It all goes back to the open or closed revelation discussion. My point is you are quick to criticize Mormon beliefs even when you have nothing to contradict them.

I wonder why you care so much about what Catholics believe about your fate since you believe in Mormonism. It shouldn’t make any difference to you what Catholics believe about your fate or whether or not Catholics accept your baptism. Catholics aren’t the only ones by the way – Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists and Methodists don’t accept Mormon baptism as valid either.

A Mormon who does his best to live his faith would in my opinion fare very well with God and would likely qualify as one who has a “baptism of desire.” I think Catholics who have been well-catechized and then reject Catholicism by turning to Mormonism are in danger of hell. I hope God treats them mercifully, but if you don’t obey God’s commandments you lose the promise of the blessings associated with those commandments.

 

[Allweather]

Allweather, that would sound okay if you would accept Mormon baptism but since you don’t, I am left to wonder what my fate is. Especially my “missionary companion” Zerinus who has never received Catholic/Protestant baptism. So are all our good works to come to naught?

I must disagree on the knowing the unknownable part. It all goes back to the open or closed revelation discussion. My point is you are quick to criticize Mormon beliefs even when you have nothing to contradict them.

Well, just to be clear, it isn’t Allweather who doesn’t accept Mormon baptism, it is the Catholic Church (and every other orthodox Protestant church as well, I’m sure) that rejects it. This rejection is based on the unChristian doctrines of Mormonism, of which there are many. It needs saying also that I am not an expert in this field, so that what I say can’t be taken as authoritative. My understanding is that the absence of baptism in and of itself, while serious, isn’t necessarily a disqualification from the ultimate vision of God in heaven. Christ judges according to his own, perfect standard. While we men know a bit about this standard, we are not in full view of it. Moreover, a properly baptized man may yet go to Hell. So baptism itself is not so much a key, as it is a step along the way, an important preliminary, preparatory receipt of sanctifying grace, which is itself a gift of almighty God.

As for your works (and mine), I don’t personally believe that any good work goes unnoticed or unrewarded by God. However, being that we mortals are so heavily influenced by our concupiscient natures, it is darned hard for a man outside sanctifying grace to perform a good work that is truly pleasing to God. Besides, it isn’t Allweather’s standard of judgement, but Almighty God’s standard that applies to works, good, bad, and in-between. Men cannot properly judge, because we love so imperfectly. God, who loves perfectly, also judges perfectly.

Christianity (all of it, not just Catholicism) teaches that public revelation is closed. This, from the Catechism:

1. Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations.” (emphasis mine)

It seems to me that Mormonism is essentially the product of “revelation” which purports to “surpass or correct” (ie restore) the “Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment.” In doing so, it has deviated badly from this Revelation, and is no longer Christian by a good measure.

So, it is not correct to say that I “have nothing to contradict (Mormon beliefs).” The Church is clear on this. Read and heed.

 

[zerinus]

We are so far off the original topic. I would be interested if somebody could come up with a Catholic version of the diagrams posted by Karin or Nan S. The plan of salvation or eternal progression or whatever you want to call it. I have a picture in my head what it (the Catholic version) would be like but is there something already existing or do one of you have a copy of Visio you could whip one together?

Sure there is. Here is a nice one for you to look at:

davidmacd.com/catholic/catholic_doctrine_flow_chart.htm

The only thing that is missing is your name and mine! I am not quite sure where we fit on there!

zerinus

P.S. I like the LDS ones better. They seem to make better sense!

 

[artist3189]

Zerinus,

Is there any Mormon Web Forums that you know of, that us Catholics can log onto to read or dialogue with? If so, paste it to a reply. I’d be very very interested to view one. I would assume you would have that info.

Everyone else should also keep in mind, while it is true that our Mormon ‘friends’ are ‘on fire for the Lord’ in some way, they are also perilously off course. It does them well for us to remind them of this and to offer prayers for their conversion.

 

[Allweather]

Sure there is. Here is a nice one for you to look at:

davidmacd.com/catholic/catholic_doctrine_flow_chart.htm

The only thing that is missing is your name and mine! I am not quite sure where we fit on there!

zerinus

P.S. I like the LDS ones better. They seem to make better sense!

Good grief. That guy is apparently well-meaning, but somebody needs to take his computer away from him, LOL. That flowchart looks like something out of one of my technical manuals at work. I think you two would be a lot better off if you stopped worrying about flowcharts. God isn’t hampered or enabled by flowcharts, and neither are you. Just use your common sense, and it will become clear enough that you’ll be able to grab ahold of it.

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus,

Is there any Mormon Web Forums that you know of, that us Catholics can log onto to read or dialogue with? If so, paste it to a reply. I’d be very very interested to view one. I would assume you would have that info.

Everyone else should also keep in mind, while it is true that our Mormon ‘friends’ are ‘on fire for the Lord’ in some way, they are also perilously off course. It does them well for us to remind them of this and to offer prayers for their conversion.

There are plenty. FAIRLDS is probably the best known one. ldstalk is another. There are lots more, but I don’t know them all because I don’t use them much. I find them boring, like Catholics debating Catholics! But if you googled for it you will find plenty of Mormon (and anti-Mormon) forums to pick form.

zerinus

 

[Karin]

[if you register with ldstalk…note that…
*2 - Do not post anything that is contrary to The Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For example, it would be fine to express your view points such as, “As a Catholic, I believe in this…” However opinions and views that are opposed what the LDS Church teaches need to be posted in the Open Forum. (Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere.)
3 - Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other posters will not be tolerated. (Attacking someone’s source of information does not constitute a personal attack, unless that source is Scripture or from another Official Church publication.) *

 

[artist3189]

Well ldstalk is out then, that’s not an open enough forum for me. I can’t have dialogue and not challenge a church teaching or scriptural interpretation.

 

[mwashabaugh]

We are so far off the original topic. I would be interested if somebody could come up with a Catholic version of the diagrams posted by Karin or Nan S. The plan of salvation or eternal progression or whatever you want to call it. I have a picture in my head what it (the Catholic version) would be like but is there something already existing or do one of you have a copy of Visio you could whip one together?

Actually, you really are off the topic (which is ok, since I’ve learned a lot about how Mormons argue). If you remember, I posted this thread asking Mormons who’ve converted to the RCC what brought them into the true church. I was concerned about my daughter & grandkids being seduced by her boyfriend’s mother into the Mormon “church”. It’s been quite educational, but “on topic”?

 

[Karin]

Actually, you really are off the topic (which is ok, since I’ve learned a lot about how Mormons argue). If you remember, I posted this thread asking Mormons who’ve converted to the RCC what brought them into the true church. I was concerned about my daughter & grandkids being seduced by her boyfriend’s mother into the Mormon “church”. It’s been quite educational, but “on topic”?

so true…
so unless Zerinus and rmcmullan are EX-MORMONS…they should not be on this thread

 

[rmcmullan]

Actually, you really are off the topic (which is ok, since I’ve learned a lot about how Mormons argue). If you remember, I posted this thread asking Mormons who’ve converted to the RCC what brought them into the true church. I was concerned about my daughter & grandkids being seduced by her boyfriend’s mother into the Mormon “church”. It’s been quite educational, but “on topic”?

Well, it was going pretty well on page 1 until the testimony of the Holy Ghost came up and then that had to be discussed and then there was this thing over DNA evidence and then there was a big broo-ha over Zerinus’ name and then there was one or two former Mormons who were actually on topic and then there was a good deal of beating on Zerinus again and then there was a couple of cool graphics. The ebb and flow on some of these threads is too strong to resist and, ahem, yes, they can loose focus from time to time. Are other threads like this? SHould we open a general Whack on Zerinus / The Mormon Threat thread?