There are no “compelling” arguments against Catholic faith, while there are many very compelling arguments against the Mormon cult.
Yet, all those so-called scriptures, those “standard works” as you call them, are subject to being overruled, modified, negated, enlarged, whatnot, by the realtime revelations of the sitting Prophet. No? Wasn’t polygamy, a revelated fact of Joseph Smith, negated, modified, by the sitting Prophet in 1889 or thereabouts? And wasn’t it for strictly secular purposes? Utah Statehood? How can you take any of these so-called “scriptures” seriously when they are so fragile?
Yes, certain tiny cults can survive, for awhile, somewhat intact, without sacraments and priesthood. But nothing else even remotely compares to the Universal Catholic Apostolic Church that Jesus founded. Nothing. Continuity of doctrine, communion, etc over 2k years. Mormonism has survived, hardly intact, for what? 170 years? And then only because it has been able to renounce various doctrinal features of itself that have become, shall we say, troublesome… Mormonism was falling apart even in Joseph Smith’s day. This is a feature of Protestantism, which, as we now know, is the father of Mormonism. Largely because Protestantism is separated from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, it is given over to fragmentation and divisive argument. The Catholic Church didn’t cease to exist when the Prots went their own way, just as the LDS branch in SLC didn’t go away when the RLDS went its own way, or any of the other various polygamist sects split off after 1890 over the polygamy thing. You still have Mormon sects that are apart from the SLC branch over polygamy, one example being the Warren Jeffs branch. Even after going on two centuries, Mormonism can claim only around 12 million adherents, and probably at least half of those are not active. You can’t compare that to the Catholic Church for longevity, continuity, universality.
There are no compelling arguments against Mormonism, and you have brought none. Mormonism is not a cult. It is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The early Christian church apostatized, and Catholicism is a remnant of that apostasy. There is ample evidence for that.
Yes, apostasy means a “renunciation;” and there was a serious “renunciation” that took place in the early Christian church that resulted in the loss of the priesthood and the divine authority of the Church. But that did not meant that all subsequent Christians that emerged in later centuries were unbelievers in Christ.
That is completely false. “Renouncing polygamy” was not a sign of “changing doctine”. The doctrine remains valid. Only the praqctice has discontinued in keeping with the law of the land. That is not changing scripturte or doctrine.
Zerinus says:bowdown: The Book of Momon is
No, Zerinus, YOU do not address the questions. THAT is avoiding any “serious intention to debate.”
whacky: ) of an “apostasy” would be interesting, except its a tautology, a logical fallacy, to argue (to put it in terms you might better understand) that “I am God because I have a letter written by me saying I am God.”in plain speak:
And according to the theology of your church, you are on target. No problem.
There is not one shread of evidence that backs that up. What the evidence does show is that a man wrote that book.
Allweather, I want to thank you for this. Through countless hours of study and prayer, and with the grace and blessing of God I renounced the LDS church, personally, and officially, because I finally accepted the fact that it was not God’s church. Joseph Smith was not a Prophet and neither is Gordon B. Hinckley. The Book of Mormon, D&C, and POGP are not the words of God. (other than the parts that come from the KJV of the Holy Bible).
Many, very compelling arguments have been posited in these pages, most by others, some by me, showing Mormonism to be not only questionable, but a farce. I believe that you are intelligent, and well-educated enough to understand these arguments, and that you do understand them.
I’ll remind my Mormon friend that I do not generally engage in argument at the nuts and bolts level. I’m not a Bible expert, nor a theologian. I take a wide-angle, somewhat overhead, view of things. I strongly believe that most things religious can be reduced down to a very simple, common sense level. When I call Mormonism a cult, you can rest assured that it isn’t just Allweather calling Mormonism a cult. ALL of orthodox Christianity, Protestant, as well as Catholic, considers Mormonism to be a cult, and for good reason: BECAUSE IT IS A CULT. The cult of Joseph Smith! That isn’t nonsense, that is a fact, and you, sir, ignore that fact at your own peril, your eternal peril, and that of the suckers you induce to follow in your footsteps. Moreover, I’ve seen you, many times, threaten to disengage from further discussion with me, as well as others here. Yet, you are still here. The proof is in the pudding… vote with your feet, or engage and be be engaged without these childish threats to leave. No one here is afraid of your leaving. I’m not skeered. FWIW I like that fact that you stick around, because, as I’ve said many times in the past, your presence, and your ridiculous arguments, make a fantastic case against Mormonism as a choice that intelligent people might make. Frankly I am amazed that your missionary handlers haven’t removed you already. Still, here you are, as always, threatening to leave or to go into ignore mode, which you’ve already done many times. And still, Zerinus is here…
You have in the quote above accused me of posting “unsubtantiated assertions.” Now, you have not substantiated your assertion that this “apostasy,” this “renunciation,” actually took place. Show us by the historical witness, and by plain common sense, that a UNIVERSAL apostasy, a COMPLETE and COMPREHENSIVE apostasy of the Christain Church ever took place, and that it is in effect today. If you are unable to do so, then you must stop making such ridiculous assertions. Your BITB “knowings” aren’t good enough. Don’t come up with the standard “I testify that an apostasy took place” gibberish. Either demonstrate the apostasy concretely, or get off the box.
Thank you, Zerinus, for admitting what so few Mormons will admit: That Mormon polygamy is NOT DEAD. It is only in a state of suspended animation. All women who are reading this, who are considering joining this unholy cult of Joseph Smith: Heads Up!! The Mormon man you are thinking is the apple of your eye? He has his eye on other women, too.
I define “Church” the way Jesus defined it in Matthew 16: Upon this rock, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. It is essentially Apostolic. Make no mistake, you itty bitty Mormons (I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept your highly questionable 12 million figure) are attacking the very Apostolic foundation of the Church, and thereby calling Jesus a liar. We aren’t really talking about the “people of God” as you want to suggest. We are talking about the Apostolic succession, the priesthood, the very foundations of the Church. You Mormons are attacking that, while admitting that, somehow, a loose-knit collection of true-believers might have survived this UNIVERSAL apostasy, for, what? TWO THOUSAND YEARS and going? That idea is, to put it very mildly, ridiculous. We don’t need no stinkin’ complicated theological arguments. Just plain ol’ American common sense will give the proof.
Zerinus, oh my Zerinus. In case you hadn’t noticed, or been informed, the Romans are gone. Their temples lie in ruins. The Greeks? Same thing. Buddhists? Shintoists? Read any decent history of Japan and you will find where they are today. But, Zerinus, take a look at the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Jesus founded upon the Apostles. It is ALIVE. It is here. It is very much NOW. It never disappeared. It outlived all these various nations and rulers and religions and dictators and false prophets. We still have the successor to Peter, who says Mass over the bones of Peter at the Vatican. Mormons? Mormons are a pathetic offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot… they don’t even appear on the radar screen. Zerinus, you’re running out of time. You know the truth. Jesus is the Truth, the Way, the Life. Rid yourself of these obscene notions about polygamy and the hope that you may someday become a god with your own planet to rule. Those are LIES.
I think I have already explained that the Apostasy does not mean that all Christians became wicked or that there were not more believing Christians left in the world; it was more in the nature of the loss of divine authority in the church. But there are two sides to this story. The other side of it is that we believe that the Bible that be have today has not been preserved intact. We believe that many important parts have been removed from it as a result of that Apostasy. But what we have left of it is sufficient to teach us the basics of the gospel.
I am sure there was. The majority of the Christians that emerged in subsequent centuries were faithful believers in Christ and tried to live according to the gospel as best they understood it.
We use the KJV because we believe that it is the best translation of the Bible into English that has ever been made.
We understand that in the light of these scriptures:
We are still patiently waiting for Zerinus, or any other Mormon, to give concrete evidence for the apostasy. After all, there is puhlenty of evidence that there never was any UNIVERSAL apostasy, and make no mistake about it, Mormons claim that there was, and is, a UNIVERSAL apostasy, meaning top-to-bottom, side-to-side, inside-and-out apostasy. To my way of thinking this apostasy lie is the most obnoxious thing about Mormonism, next to polygamy. Mormons want people to believe that all the martyrs, all the great priests, brothers, monks, nuns, lay people throughout history, were just going through the motions. This is a grave insult to God’s people, coming from the spiritual children of an unholy money digger named Joseph Smith, a man who used religion to justify his sexual predation upon little girls and other mens’ wives.
You know that that is not what we believe. Lying about and slandering Joseph Smith will not help your cause. The answer to your question has already been given, and need not be given again.