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JonathanKinsman
Guest
Nan,
Thanks. And to think (going over my past postings) I usually catch my mistakes!
Thanks
Thanks. And to think (going over my past postings) I usually catch my mistakes!
Thanks
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Nan_S
Guest
Picky, picky.
The rest of my post implied this third question, as it was looking for validation in independent ancient records of the Mormon standard works.Ok, I see your distinction. You are looking for another “inspired vision” revelation of ancient texts, while I am looking for archaeological discoveries. Note that I never said “accidentally.” When an archeologist finds something, it’s usually because he’s looking for something, even though he may only have a general idea of what may be there.
Legitimate “accidental” findings happen too, as in the case of the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were found when a boy was tossing rocks into caves and heard pottery break. The “accidental” nature of the finding doesn’t invalidate the worth of the discovery. Who’s to say that God didn’t prompt the boy to throw the stones in the caves that day?
I understand “by the will and power of God, just as the Book of Mormon has been revealed” to mean just exactly what it says. The Golden Plates didn’t come to Joseph Smith in a dream vision. According to his own account, he was directed to a stone box buried on Hill Cumorah near Manchester, New York, wherein he found the plates and the means to translate them.
Therefore, if God means for other ancient texts to be revealed in a way that will be accepted by all of Christianity and Judaism, I really don’t think God will limit His revelation to an inspired dream-vision given to the LDS current president.
Show me the independent external evidence that these larger gospels existed, and I’ll examine it. If you don’t have that, all you are doing is making an argument from text interpretation. It’s an extremely weak argument which any pastor in any church or denomination can make.
The controversial Jesus Seminar’s quest for the Historical Jesus tried that approach already, and the Jesus they “uncovered” was nothing like the Mormons’ Jesus. A closer look shows that the people doing the tampering, in their case, were the Jesus Seminar themselves.
(continued next post)
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Nan_S
Guest
(continued)
Zerinus:
Some of the missing books are named, true. Where in the bible does it say these were “sacred” books? As I’ve just shown with the Assumption of Moses and the Book of Enoch, and as you’ve claimed before with Joseph’s Smith’s answer to his question about the so-called Apocrypha, a reference to a book, or even demonstrated usage of that book does not render it “sacred.” A book that does not contain the complete truth, and therefore is not worthy of canonization, still can contain some elements of truth, just as was proclaimed by to Joseph Smith. (The Catholic church did not received the same message about the so-called Apocrypha that Joseph Smith did, but that is a different issue.)
When considering the list of missing OT works you cited, and the ones I’ve just mentioned, it worth making two points:
My first point is this: You said, “we believe that the Bible that be have today has not been preserved intact. We believe that many important parts have been removed from it as a result of that Apostasy.” Then you provided me with the names of missing OT works.
A lot of OT-era works were indeed destroyed between the time of Queen Jezebel in 870 BC and the Babylonian Captivity in 605 BC, mostly in a deliberate attempt by Baal and Astarte/Asherah worshippers to wipe out the Jewish religion. For some reason, I do not think that Jezebel & co., 870 years before Christ, were part of the post-Jesus-era Great Apostasy.
This pre-Babylonian Captivity destruction is well-documented and accounts for the missing works you cited. What is not documented anywhere, other than Mormon revelation, is any deliberate removal of any canonized OT or NT books at any time after the Jews returned from Babylon in 538 BC, until Martin Luther did it in the early 1500s.
My second point is this: None of the missing books named in the bible, or any other known ancient record, are the same ones that are now included in the Mormon standard works. If you can show me differently, please do so.
Nan
You missed a couple. The NT Letter of Jude refers to the Assumption of Moses (now lost) and the Book of Enoch which now exists in a couple of somewhat contradictory ancient manuscripts. Both of these were 4th through 1st century BC OT-era works. However, Jude is not making a case for these books to be added to the OT canon, even though others later did make such an argument. Jude refers to them because they were commonly known works familiar to his audience and had certain valid theological points worth retaining, even if the entirety of the books were not theologically sound.
zerinus
Some of the missing books are named, true. Where in the bible does it say these were “sacred” books? As I’ve just shown with the Assumption of Moses and the Book of Enoch, and as you’ve claimed before with Joseph’s Smith’s answer to his question about the so-called Apocrypha, a reference to a book, or even demonstrated usage of that book does not render it “sacred.” A book that does not contain the complete truth, and therefore is not worthy of canonization, still can contain some elements of truth, just as was proclaimed by to Joseph Smith. (The Catholic church did not received the same message about the so-called Apocrypha that Joseph Smith did, but that is a different issue.)
When considering the list of missing OT works you cited, and the ones I’ve just mentioned, it worth making two points:
My first point is this: You said, “we believe that the Bible that be have today has not been preserved intact. We believe that many important parts have been removed from it as a result of that Apostasy.” Then you provided me with the names of missing OT works.
A lot of OT-era works were indeed destroyed between the time of Queen Jezebel in 870 BC and the Babylonian Captivity in 605 BC, mostly in a deliberate attempt by Baal and Astarte/Asherah worshippers to wipe out the Jewish religion. For some reason, I do not think that Jezebel & co., 870 years before Christ, were part of the post-Jesus-era Great Apostasy.
This pre-Babylonian Captivity destruction is well-documented and accounts for the missing works you cited. What is not documented anywhere, other than Mormon revelation, is any deliberate removal of any canonized OT or NT books at any time after the Jews returned from Babylon in 538 BC, until Martin Luther did it in the early 1500s.
My second point is this: None of the missing books named in the bible, or any other known ancient record, are the same ones that are now included in the Mormon standard works. If you can show me differently, please do so.
Nan
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zerinus
Guest
The discussion almost ends here. Let me ask you a few questions. What independent historical or archaeological evidence do you have that Jesus Christ was the Son of God? What evidence do you have that the Bible is the word of God? What evidence do you have that Elijah was a real prophet sent from God? How do you know that the miracles of Moses ever happened? If you can prove to me any of these things by external evidence, I will also prove to you how I know that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and Joseph Smith was a prophet.
What you are ignoring is that Christianity and Judaism and all other religions are apostate in the sight of God, and He cannot reveal his mind and will to them by revelation in this or any other manner otherwise He would have done so. That is why He has taken the trouble to restored His true Church with full divine authority of the priesthood by a new dispensation of the gospel. He will operate through the organization that He has established and recognizes to have authority from Him.
I think you have missed something. You are referring to these verses:
Jude
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
I don’t see the names of “Assumption of Moses” or “Book of Enoch” mentioned anywhere in these passages. You are making a lot of unjustified assumptions. How do you know those books are the sources of those quotes? How do you know that the Book of Enoch is not a corrupted version of an authentic scriptural book?
Because the pattern of usage conforms to the pattern used in the OT to refer to genuine sacred texts.
See above.
zerinus
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christianley
Guest
You know you guys are all alike. You’re just as bad as the former Mormons over at Recovery for Mormonism who have completely rejected Christianity once they decided the Book of Mormon is false. They are right about the Book of Mormon being false, but go with the liberal “scholars” when it comes to the Bible.
All of the questions above are questions of faith. But the fact is a Christian community existed from the first century onwards testifying of these things. Such an ancient community does not exist for any of the claims of the Book of Mormon. It can’t be found anywhere in the Americas. There is no ancient manuscript in the Americas which testifies of Jesus Christ’s visit to the Americas. There are ancient manuscripts which testify of Jesus Christ’s resurrection. Since these are all matters of faith whose testimony should I trust? The Biblical story is consistent with the setting of the Middle East and in fact archaeology has verified much of what is in the Bible. As for Jesus’ day, we know there was a Pilate and a Roman government. We don’t have any evidence of Nephites and Lamanites.
The Mormon argument always tries to undermine faith in the claims of ancient Christianity. This ought to tell us something about what Spirit is leading Mormonism.
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artist3189
Guest
Nan asks you for some independent external evidence for the credence of Mormon writings and teachings and you ask her for proof of God, whether God actually truly inspired the Bible. That’s rich, that would be funny if it weren’t so sad.
What HARD evidence would you accept zerinus, exactly what? God coming down and telling you, face to face, because anything short of that would be an opinion of faith and you know it, so you do the old ‘catch 22’ argument to fend off her real question, very smooth and typical of Mormons who can’t hold up to the historical scrutiny. Every kook that every had a following could claim to talk to angles, have visions, get messages from god, just turn on the TV. How can you PROVE it one way or another. If we speak of the life of the Holy Spirit revealing himself within the Church for 2000 years through his Saints, Miracles and private revelations, you would shrug that off. If we point to outside sources like Josephus, you’d say interesting, but not proof of anything. So stay safe in your ‘catch 22’ life zerinus. Just pretend that old Joe Smith wasn’t just a man trying to have his cake and eat it too, like so many cult leaders are, having as many women as possible with no religious constraints. Just pretend its all fine, even though NO hard proof that the GoldenTablets even exist, (funny how we have all those Biblical records and nothing from 175 years ago of that grand importance) forget that no evidence for his ‘historical’ accounts exist. Mormonism was founded by a mentally unstable charlatan. That, you can have faith in!
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Allweather
Guest
Nan, or another, will offer more details in reply to your question. From my simplistic point of view, the answer is this: The historical fact of the survival of the Church that Jesus established upon the Apostles. Can you think of any other institution upon Earth that has the demonstrable longevity of the Catholic Church? It is recorded in Scripture that Jesus established this Church, and further promised us that that “gates of hell will not prevail” against it. And so it has survived every attack, from within, and from without. It still thrives today. Yes, minor factions have broken off from it, but the body of the Church that Jesus founded has never ceased to exist, or, for that matter, been seriously affected by these breakaway factions. Zerinus and other cultists want to claim that it went apostate, but they cannot provide any evidence for this. At the same time, the historical evidence that it did NOT go apostate, that it survived, with its gospel kernal unblemished and intact, is easy for anyone to see. This, to me, is the very best evidence of the sort you are asking for. If the Church had truly gone apostate, then it would have ceased to exist centuries ago.
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christianley
Guest
Supposedly, at one time in the Americas, all of the people were living in peace, harmony, etc. and were following Jesus. Now if the whole ancient civilization was actually following Jesus perfectly for 200 years you would think we would find some evidence of that in the archaeological record. The Catholic Church has continued to exist and yet we are to believe the entire church Jesus supposedly established in the Americas was just simply wiped out of existence? Nothing survived of a church which supposedly had a universal impact on that ancient society? Does that make any sense at all?
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Allweather
Guest
No, it doesn’t. To my way of thinking, all of the cults’ claims and, for that matter, the claims of Protestants in general, fall apart in the face of the reality of the Catholic Church. We can argue nuts and bolts, this Scripture vs that so-called scripture, til the cows come home, and still be locked in disagreement over meanings. But no cultist can look at what must be a very stark and uncomfortable reality, that of the very existence of the Catholic Church, and not be made to feel awkward and strange in their cult beliefs; the continuity of its doctrine and dogma, the unbroken line of successive Popes and bishops, its abilty to withstand the worst persecutions and civil turmoils, heresies, apostasies, sins and sinners, and yet still it is alive and thriving in the world today. After all those centuries of turmoil, the Church still operates on the world stage as no other institution can, producing great leaders like John Paul II, and many others too numerous to name here.
There is no other possible explanation for this: It is God’s True Church on earth, the one that Jesus established and promised to protect from error, the one all the little cultists hate so much, because by its very existence it makes the lie of all their claims. They can’t lay claim to legitimacy without first disposing of the Catholic Church, yet they cannot do that. They can only seem to do it (for the gullible) with fabricated and long-winded arguments that use convoluted reasonings and misapplications of sacred Scripture. Yet, the truth is easy to see for anyone who wants to see it, just as the existence of God is easy to know for anyone who really wants to know it. It doesn’t take a lot of argument, just plain ol’ common sense and a willingness to humble oneself before God, and then get with the program.
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Jerusha
Guest
Seek the middle ground. Balance is the answer.
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nd_smc_02
Guest
I am Catholic and I have a very good friend who is Mormon. She was unable to answer my question. I would like to know what is the “baptism of the dead”. Do Mormons go to Catholic cemeteries and baptise the dead into Mormonism?
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christianley
Guest
They take the names of the dead to Mormon temples and have vicarious baptisms in which a living person is baptized for a dead person. When I was a Mormon, I went to the temple and was baptized on behalf of my father who had already died. The baptism is by immersion. Supposedly, my father residing in the Spirit Prison had the right to reject the Mormon baptism or accept it and be welcomed into heaven.
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zerinus
Guest
You are hoping against hope aren’t you? These folks have already lost the argument. They have no more sensible, logical, reasonable answers to give (if they ever did
). That is why they engage in this kind of talk. Their posts amounts to nothing more than an admission of defeat.zerinus
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christianley
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You haven’t given us one good reason for people to abandon Catholicism for Mormonism.You are hoping against hope aren’t you? These folks have already lost the argument. They have no more sensible, logical, reasonable answers to give (if they ever did
zerinus
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zerinus
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artist3189
Guest
Tell me another one
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zerinus
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Nan_S
Guest
It seems you are hoping I will answer “because the Holy Ghost told me so.” That trip-wire is a little too obvious, so I’m going to step right past it.
I have the witness of the God’s miraculous testimony to validate the words of His messengers. Looking at the accounts listed here, which messengers then should I believe?
– Moses stood before Pharaoh and the Israelites saying “I have this message for you from God, and here is the witness of His miracles that you may know this message is true.”
– Elijah stood before King Ahab, Queen Jezebel, and the Israelites saying “I have this message for you from God, and here is the witness of His miracles that you may know this message is true.”
– Jesus stood before the chief priests, elders, and the Israelites saying “I AM,” I have this message for you, and here is the witness of my miracles that you may know this message is true."
– Muhammad said, “I have had visions from God, and he told me to write this book to record the visions.”
– Joseph Smith said, “I have had visions from God, and he told me where to find this book which I translated, and no, I don’t have the original copy, sorry, but I want you to pray about it.”
– Moses raised his staff and God parted the sea.
– Elijah struck the flooding Jordan river with his cloak, and God parted the water.
– Jesus walked on the water, spoke a Word of Command, and the storm went still.
– Joseph Smith floated across a river in a wagon on the way to Utah.
– Moses prayed and God split open the ground to swallow the rebels.
– Elijah prayed and God raised a dead boy.
– Jesus raised several dead people and then himself.
– Joseph Smith was shot in a gunbattle. He may have been praying.
– Moses prayed and God sent manna and quail, and water flowed from desert rocks.
– Elijah prayed and God made a handful of flour and a cup of oil feed a family for a year.
– Jesus divided loaves and fish to feed five thousand men with their families, and then again to feed four thousand with their families.
– Joseph Smith’s followers eventually started a food bank.
– Moses was a prophet who accurately related the words of God from the day God called him until he died.
– Elijah was a prophet who accurately related the words of God from the day God called him until he was taken to heaven in a fiery chariot.
– Jesus was and is God.
– Joseph Smith was a prophet from the time he had the vision about the Golden Plates until the day before he decided to give the King Follett Discourse. Then he wasn’t speaking as a prophet any more, and the message he said came from God was really a mistake (your description).
If Joseph Smith prayed and God responded by working any miracles, please give me an account. I’m sure it would have been recorded in a newspaper article somewhere.
(continued)
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Nan_S
Guest
(continued)
Zerinus:
The independent historical and archaeological evidence for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah is well documented, in written and oral form, by believers and non-believing observers alike. The carefully preserved, accurate and reliable ancient records match their modern copies. The bible is by far the best documented ancient historical record in the world.
When Jezebel and the apostate Baal-worshipping kings of Israel tried to wipe out the memory of God by destroying documents, oral historians kept the accounts until they could be written again.
Oral history is an art seldom found in the modern world, and is unjustly maligned. To the ancients who did not have cheap, plentiful writing materals, oral historians were highly revered and essential. That trade took years of work as the apprentice memorized the entire history of his people, word-for-word, and learned to present it without error.
A modern account of the oral historian at work is in the biography of Alex Haley, author of “Roots.” He describes his journey to Africa where he found the village from which his ancestor, Kunta Kinte, was kidnapped and sold into slavery. Haley asked the tribe’s oral historian if he knew Kunta’s name. The historian told Haley that he could not jump to specific names, but he could proclaim the entire history from its beginning. So the tribe was gathered and the historian started. About three hours - three hours!!! - into the chronological telling he reached the point of Kunta’s disappearance, exactly coinciding in every detail with the events leading up to the kidnap which Kunta himself told his children and grandchildren in America.
Probably the most obstinate, apostate people God ever dealt with were the Israelites at the time they left Egypt, and again after the death of King Solomon until the Babylonian Captivity. Yet God had no trouble reaching them; He just had to provide a little miraculous evidence. Where are Joseph Smith’s miracles?
We know those are the sources because they are attested to in the ancient historical records you don’t seem to be interested in examining, and because we have dated ancient manuscripts of the Book of Enoch which match the quotes given. I’ve already given you one very good web-link.
Corrupt or not, Jude never suggested that the Book of Enoch should be accepted as scripture, just that it had a useful passage.
And nothing in the Book of Enoch resembles the Mormon Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, or any other Mormon standard work. Nor does any other ancient work referenced in the bible or any outside ancient record resemble the Mormon standard works. If you can show I am wrong by producing such records, please produce them.
But if all you have to go on is the testimony of a “warm fuzzy” it is unreliable at best. How am I to know that any burning-in-the-bosom feeling is anything other than wishful thinking superimposing human desires over the message God? The burning feeling may be “burning” because it comes, not from the warmth of heaven, but from the fires of Gehenna.
Nan
What are you suggesting? That the independent, ancient external evidence of Moses, Elijah, and Jesus somehow proves Joseph Smith is a prophet without ever mentioning him? Or that you will withhold whatever evidence you have until I meet an undefined standard of proof?
The independent historical and archaeological evidence for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah is well documented, in written and oral form, by believers and non-believing observers alike. The carefully preserved, accurate and reliable ancient records match their modern copies. The bible is by far the best documented ancient historical record in the world.
When Jezebel and the apostate Baal-worshipping kings of Israel tried to wipe out the memory of God by destroying documents, oral historians kept the accounts until they could be written again.
Oral history is an art seldom found in the modern world, and is unjustly maligned. To the ancients who did not have cheap, plentiful writing materals, oral historians were highly revered and essential. That trade took years of work as the apprentice memorized the entire history of his people, word-for-word, and learned to present it without error.
A modern account of the oral historian at work is in the biography of Alex Haley, author of “Roots.” He describes his journey to Africa where he found the village from which his ancestor, Kunta Kinte, was kidnapped and sold into slavery. Haley asked the tribe’s oral historian if he knew Kunta’s name. The historian told Haley that he could not jump to specific names, but he could proclaim the entire history from its beginning. So the tribe was gathered and the historian started. About three hours - three hours!!! - into the chronological telling he reached the point of Kunta’s disappearance, exactly coinciding in every detail with the events leading up to the kidnap which Kunta himself told his children and grandchildren in America.
Surely you’re not suggesting God’s omnipotence is less than omnipotent? You’re the one who keeps repeating that even if the church leaders were apostate, the people still believed in the truth. Now you want me to believe that God cannot reveal His mind and will to the believing people by revelation in this or any other manner?
Probably the most obstinate, apostate people God ever dealt with were the Israelites at the time they left Egypt, and again after the death of King Solomon until the Babylonian Captivity. Yet God had no trouble reaching them; He just had to provide a little miraculous evidence. Where are Joseph Smith’s miracles?
Honestly, this denial is more like covering your ears and saying, “Not listening, not listening, no, no, no, not listening.”
We know those are the sources because they are attested to in the ancient historical records you don’t seem to be interested in examining, and because we have dated ancient manuscripts of the Book of Enoch which match the quotes given. I’ve already given you one very good web-link.
Corrupt or not, Jude never suggested that the Book of Enoch should be accepted as scripture, just that it had a useful passage.
And nothing in the Book of Enoch resembles the Mormon Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, or any other Mormon standard work. Nor does any other ancient work referenced in the bible or any outside ancient record resemble the Mormon standard works. If you can show I am wrong by producing such records, please produce them.
But if all you have to go on is the testimony of a “warm fuzzy” it is unreliable at best. How am I to know that any burning-in-the-bosom feeling is anything other than wishful thinking superimposing human desires over the message God? The burning feeling may be “burning” because it comes, not from the warmth of heaven, but from the fires of Gehenna.
Nan
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zerinus
Guest
I wouldn’t dream of “hoping” for any such a thing. I don’t believe for a moment that you do know for certain that any of those miraculous events really took place. The only way that you could know for certain that they happened would be by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost; and I don’t believe that you have that. If you did, you would also know by the same means that the Book of Mormon is true.
How do you know that those miraculous events described in the Bible are not fables? If you have such compelling evidence for them, why don’t you go and tell the atheists? They think that these are all old fables. That is why they don’t believe. If your evidence is so convincing, why don’t you go and convert them all?
Do you know how much opposition Joseph Smith faced when he began translating the Book of Mormon? Do you know what strenuous efforts were made to destroy his work and prevent him from accomplishing what God had commanded him to do? Did you know that he lost the first 116 pages of the translated manuscript of the Book of Mormon because he was naive enough to trust others whom God had not commended? It was only through the miraculous intervention and preservation of God that he was able to face the opposition, and accomplish the work of the Lord at all. But God did not leave His work without witnesses. First, there were three witnesses to whom the plates and other artefacts were shown by the miraculous power of God, whose testimonies are printed in the Book of Mormon. After that there were eight other witnesses to whom Joseph Smith showed the plates, who have likewise testified of them.
Peter was crucified upside down. Jesus was crucified right side up. And Paul was beheaded. They may have been praying.
And the disciples of Jesus had “all things in common” (Acts 2:44; 4:32).
How do you know?
You are now asking me to prove to you the truth of Mormonism by miracles! Actually, there are many recorded instances of Joseph Smith and the early saints and Apostles performing miracles; but I am not going to relate them here for the following reason:
The unbelieving Jews asked Jesus exactly the same question, and got this answer from Him:
John 6:
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Matthew 16:
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
zerinus
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