Any genetic evidence for Mormonism?

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I’m no expert in these things. However, I understand recent genetic research has proven all humans descended from a single woman (by tracing mitochondiral dna). I believe the source of the oldest set of DNA came from Mongolia, closer to Siberia than to the Americas. In order to make an extension of the logic that the Mormon belief is correct, there would need to be more data and specifics than this article presents. Without knowing the genetic variation, and how it is proves the contrary thesis incorrect, there’s little that can be gained from this.

If we trace back any nation or race far enough back, they all come to the same origin - science has proven the Biblical narrative. So, it would follow that at some point, Egyptian Jews and Native Americans could share a common ancestry. However, the link as proposed in the LDS church seems unlikely given the archeological record of the ages in which both areas were inhabited.
 
I think it is very telling that there is a wealth of documentation of the various Amerindian populations that all descended from those who migrated from Mongolia around 10,000 - 13,000 years ago, from many different scientific disciplines. Biology, archeology, linguistics, anthropology, and many others - the evidence is perfectly consistant and is finally confirmed by a wealth of solid DNA evidence.

By contrast, there is not a shred of evidence from ANY scientific discipline to support the existence of Nephite-Lamanite populations which purport to have descended from Israelites and inhabited the Americas a scant 1,586 years ago! That’s about 20 minutes ago in archeological time.

Paul
 
Simon Southerton, former mormon now excommunicated. He is a molecular biologist who wrote a book about DNA and the Book of Mormon. It is available here:

signaturebooks.com/Losing.htm

Mormons, of course, do not support his science.
 
I think it is possible that various Old World populations (however small) migrated to the Americas before Columbus. The Vikings certainly did it, and they weren’t all Einstein-type geniuses (no offense to any Norwegians out there:D), so it’s likely other peoples (including the Basque, Celts, Chinese, Phoenicians, Egyptians, and West Africans) probably were able to land in the Americas too, even far back as 1000 BCE or before. However, any such migration probably numbered no more than a 1000 people, if that much, so their genetic markers may have died out or been swamped by the Siberian-Mongolian genetic dominance.
 
The genetic evidence excludes any non-Mongolians prior to 1492. The geneticists examined Amerindians interred prior to 1492 (old specimens) and found no genetic traces of any non-Mongolians. Then they examined Amerindians interred after 1492 and found in some of them genetic markers for European Caucasians and the occasional African. The later the specimens, the more European and African markers occurred.

None of the old specimens had any Hebrew markers, or any Caucasian or African markers for that matter. Pure Mongolian, no added ingredients.

There is a really good PBS special that chronicles all of this research. If you get the opportunity, watch it. Using mtDNA, they united 3 generations of genetically related Amerindians from South America, Mexico and Alaska with their distant cousins in Mongolia. It was a very powerful piece of science journalism.

Paul
 
Agreed, recent pre-1492 numbers must have been small, but their influence was great, especially in East Coast areas and Great Lakes. Remember that the date 1492 is an exact date, and radiocarbon marking for the range like that of 1300 to 1550 is inexact.
 
Ahimsa said:
I think it is possible that various Old World populations (however small) migrated to the Americas before Columbus. The Vikings certainly did it, and they weren’t all Einstein-type geniuses (no offense to any Norwegians out there:D), so it’s likely other peoples (including the Basque, Celts, Chinese, Phoenicians, Egyptians, and West Africans) probably were able to land in the Americas too, even far back as 1000 BCE or before. However, any such migration probably numbered no more than a 1000 people, if that much, so their genetic markers may have died out or been swamped by the Siberian-Mongolian genetic dominance.
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The Muslim Empire of Mali supposedly had one king abdicate in the 1100’s or 1200’s to pursue a adventure across the Ocean after he had supposedly sent some troops across the sea to find what was there, they claimed they had reached land and had been in a few scraps with the locals.
Coresponding to this when the Spanish arrived in the northern parts of South America several spanish soldier noted in journals they found villages with some muslims, and/or black people. Also they heard stories from locals of when there had been an invasion of black people hundreds of years before and they had fought a war.

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence for trans-atlantic and trans-pacific trade and exploration before 1492, on a very limited basis. Look a the Story of St. Brendan the Navigator, he made it across the Atlantic to North America in 530AD. When the vikings discovered Iceland some of the men recorded that they killed the pappers and others living on the island. (Vikings called priests pappers or similar). St. Brendan claimed to have landed at an Island of fire and ice, which would fit with Iceland. He claimed to have passed walls of crystal (icebergs anyone?). More to the point ruins of what look like a 6th century style monestary have been found in the woods in Maine. I dunno if thats what it actually was. But I do believe St. Brendan atleast visted North America and returned to Ireland. So who knows but St. Brendan was cool none the less. Oh yeah and when Columbus set sail he hoped to find St. Brendans Isle(North America?) along the way to asia.
 
zagjames said:
The Muslim Empire of Mali supposedly had one king abdicate in the 1100’s or 1200’s to pursue a adventure across the Ocean after he had supposedly sent some troops across the sea to find what was there, they claimed they had reached land and had been in a few scraps with the locals.
Coresponding to this when the Spanish arrived in the northern parts of South America several spanish soldier noted in journals they found villages with some muslims, and/or black people. Also they heard stories from locals of when there had been an invasion of black people hundreds of years before and they had fought a war.

What is your source for this? Very interesting. Ocean currents favored such travels.

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence for trans-atlantic and trans-pacific trade and exploration before 1492, on a very limited basis. Look a the Story of St. Brendan the Navigator, he made it across the Atlantic to North America in 530AD. When the vikings discovered Iceland some of the men recorded that they killed the pappers and others living on the island. (Vikings called priests pappers or similar). St. Brendan claimed to have landed at an Island of fire and ice, which would fit with Iceland. He claimed to have passed walls of crystal (icebergs anyone?). More to the point ruins of what look like a 6th century style monestary have been found in the woods in Maine. I dunno if thats what it actually was. But I do believe St. Brendan atleast visted North America and returned to Ireland. So who knows but St. Brendan was cool none the less. Oh yeah and when Columbus set sail he hoped to find St. Brendans Isle(North America?) along the way to asia.
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“The Man who Led Columbus to America” can’t think of the author at this moment.
 
The Muslim Empire of Mali supposedly had one king abdicate in the 1100’s or 1200’s to pursue a adventure across the Ocean after he had supposedly sent some troops across the sea to find what was there, they claimed they had reached land and had been in a few scraps with the locals.
Coresponding to this when the Spanish arrived in the northern parts of South America several spanish soldier noted in journals they found villages with some muslims, and/or black people. Also they heard stories from locals of when there had been an invasion of black people hundreds of years before and they had fought a war.
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What is your source for this? Very interesting. Ocean currents favored such travels.
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I first found something on it when I was looking up stuff on St. Brendan. I found it on Wikipedia, I asked one of my history teachers about it and they said they had read a book about a Malise expidition to the new world and the evidence for it but they couldnt remember the name of the book.
 
Even if the odd european or polinesian had made to the Americas, his DNA must have been lost in the Siberian-mongolian sea.
 
inthecloud said:
Even if the odd european or polinesian had made to the Americas, his DNA must have been lost in the Siberian-mongolian sea.
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There are some significant points I think.

The odd visitor isn’t claimed to have been the progenitor of an entire civilization. There is not any DNA evidence of a people who originated from the Middle East. Which is surprising since the accounts in the Book of Mormon there are hundreds of thousands of ancestors of these Middle Eastern immigrants.

Also, there are no contemporary records of the civilization and cultures that are described in the Book of Mormon. For example, Bible civilizations such as Jerusalem, the customs of the Hebrew people, their religious beliefs and practices, these can all be found and are documented outside of the Bible. There is no comparison for this with the Book of Mormon. It describes a civilization and culture that is not recorded of anywhere else. There are not any other writings at all. Zero. None. It is a civilization and culture that apparently existed in a vacuum.

There is no DNA evidence of the Book of Mormon people because it doesn’t exist and never will.
 
zagjames said:
I first found something on it when I was looking up stuff on St. Brendan. I found it on Wikipedia, I asked one of my history teachers about it and they said they had read a book about a Malise expidition to the new world and the evidence for it but they couldnt remember the name of the book.
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They Came Before Columbus by Ivan Van Sertima looks at the possible African presence in pre-Columbia America. I don’t agree with everything Van Sertima argues, such as the idea that the presence of pyramids in MesoAmerica and Egypt necessarily implies some direct cultural diffusion or connection, but the Olmec statues’ physical features certainly can’t be ignored.

Another source is Bryan Wilhite.
 
FYI - Thanks so far for the response. I am still keeping my eyes here in case someone has supporting evidence.
 
Thanks, Ahimsa. Good information.

We have evidence for WestAfrican, Viking, Irish, possibly Polynesian, Chinese and possibly Muslim Arab. Only the African is ancient, the others begin as 600AD, not 600 BC.

There is no Jewish evidence whatsoever.
 
RebeccaJ said:
There are some significant points I think.

The odd visitor isn’t claimed to have been the progenitor of an entire civilization. There is not any DNA evidence of a people who originated from the Middle East. Which is surprising since the accounts in the Book of Mormon there are hundreds of thousands of ancestors of these Middle Eastern immigrants.

Also, there are no contemporary records of the civilization and cultures that are described in the Book of Mormon. For example, Bible civilizations such as Jerusalem, the customs of the Hebrew people, their religious beliefs and practices, these can all be found and are documented outside of the Bible. There is no comparison for this with the Book of Mormon. It describes a civilization and culture that is not recorded of anywhere else. There are not any other writings at all. Zero. None. It is a civilization and culture that apparently existed in a vacuum.

There is no DNA evidence of the Book of Mormon people because it doesn’t exist and never will.
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Lack of evidence is not proof of non existence, if it had not been for one stone we would not have any knowledge of the Egyptian culture either.

Paul
 
Paul_G said:
Lack of evidence is not proof of non existence, if it had not been for one stone we would not have any knowledge of the Egyptian culture either.

Paul
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No, not absolute proof. A universal negative can not be proven at all. It is merely evidence. As time goes on, though, and genetic science gives more insight into the the relationships of ancient peoples, it becomes more compelling that the Book of Mormon records events that never really happened. The Mormon Church will have to spin this error somehow, but that’s been done before. The Millerites, instead of admitting they were wrong after Jesus did not return on their schedule (1874) came out of the debacle as the Seventh Day Adventist. Then Jehovah Witnesses said Jesus would return in 1914, then with in a generation of 1914, then soon. There are even some who spun the disappointment to a secret return of Jesus to explain why we are still here posting away.

I am just curious as time goes on how Mormon leaders will respond to genetic evidence.
 
Paul_G said:
Lack of evidence is not proof of non existence, if it had not been for one stone we would not have any knowledge of the Egyptian culture either.
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But that’s really not true is it? We would have lots of knowledge of the Egyptian culture even if we couldn’t read their language. After all, the ancient Egyptians left all kinds of archeological evidence in the form of buildings, artifacts, tombs, treasures, mummies, and the list goes on and on. The complete absence of any such evidence from the BoM civilizations should cause all Mormons some concern as to whether they really ever existed. Where is any evidence that any of the BoM peoples ever existed?
 
Chris-WA said:
But that’s really not true is it? We would have lots of knowledge of the Egyptian culture even if we couldn’t read their language. After all, the ancient Egyptians left all kinds of archeological evidence in the form of buildings, artifacts, tombs, treasures, mummies, and the list goes on and on. The complete absence of any such evidence from the BoM civilizations should cause all Mormons some concern as to whether they really ever existed. Where is any evidence that any of the BoM peoples ever existed?
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Yes, we knew it was Egypt, that there were mummies, buildings, artefacts, etc. We knew they were Egyptian because there was a continuance known history of the area. How ever we did not know anything of the culture. Culture is not in the things, but what people do with the things - This we had no knowledge of. If we had just stumbled on to all the things you noted without any prior knowledge of them, and no rosetta stone we would not have any knowledge what so ever about this lost culture and would be left to speculate as to their meaning.

Paul
 
Paul_G said:
Yes, we knew it was Egypt, that there were mummies, buildings, artefacts, etc. We knew they were Egyptian because there was a continuance known history of the area. How ever we did not know anything of the culture. Culture is not in the things, but what people do with the things - This we had no knowledge of. If we had just stumbled on to all the things you noted without any prior knowledge of them, and no rosetta stone we would not have any knowledge what so ever about this lost culture and would be left to speculate as to their meaning.

Paul
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But the discussion here is not about cultural artifacts, it is about DNA evidence. These are very different things.
 
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