Any new insight to anti-Catholic debate?

[EsclavoDeCristo]

Below is the copy and paste in chronological order of an intial PM I was sent along with my responses. It is long but please read and see if maybe you can better address these issues.

Dear Sir

*You can know for sure that when you die that you will be in heaven with God. It is all found right in the Word of God. Trust the Word and not your feelings or self effort. No person can make himself acceptable to God through good works. God has already done that for us through Christ. All we need to do it to accept by faith alone what God has already done for us. Read the following verses and trust what the Bible is telling us. *

*1 John 5:11-15**11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. *

*13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, **This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. *
*15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him. *

2 Cor 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

*Eph 2:8-9 *8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast

Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

DLC

I DO believe and I work out my salvation daily in fear and trembling. 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

God bless you. I pray that you would continue to grow daily in holiness and in your walk with Christ!

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

Originally Posted by DLC
*Dear Sir,
The word “workout” in the Greek does not mean work for. It means to exhibit or to put into practice. We are never commaded in the to work for ones salvation. The shear fact that salvation is a gift to us from God negates any working for it on our part
Eph 2:8-9.

Now notice this verse below.
Phil 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, **work out your salvation **with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
NASU

Notice that the book of Phillipians is written to saved people. Phil 1:1-2 To all **the saints in Christ Jesus **who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NASU

A person who is in Christ by faith is a Saint and saved. The only way one gets in Christ is by faith alone. So Paul would not be telling the readers on one hand that they are saved and then tell them on the other hand that need to work for their salvation. If they are already saved by faith why do they need to work for their salvation which they already have? They don’t need to. But they do need to put into practice what they have Eph 2:10. They are to show to other what is real in their hearts. This the same idea as James is tell us, that faith without works is dead. One must have faith first before any type of ork comes into play. One cannot work out or exhibit what they do not have. ****

Darrel*

Isn’t having faith a “work” that we must “do” in order to be saved?? If I don’t decided to have faith, or take the inative and make the decision (which would be the work of making the choice) to have faith, then I wouldn’t be saved? Using this argument one could say that all are saved so why bother following the teachings of Christ? He died for us all that we all might have life abundantly. He established a Church, gave authority to the apostles which has been passed down for 2000 years through the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands and prayer. I choose to believe what the Holy Spirit has revealed through Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church, on salvation that we are saved by grace through faith and that this must be a faith lived not just in word. When you use the bible for your own personal interpretation it is the same as the other thousands of denominations. We are not all granted the authority to interpret as we please. There is only 1 God, 1 father, 1 creator of all. There is only 1 teaching. There is only 1 Church with the authority to interpret, the Catholic Church. This is not to hold the bible bound, but to protect it from false teaching. I choose to follow the Father. I choose to follow the Son. I choose to follow the Holy Spirit and the Church that He guides.

God bless you as you continue your journey towards the Truth.

Good day

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLC
*If faith is work that we must do for salvation, how come the Bible tells that salvation is by faith and not of works? ****

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
NASU

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy
NASU

2 Tim 1:8-10

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
NASU

Darrel*

are you sure it is the bible and not your non-authoritative interpretation? there are many interpretations: some protestants say once saved always saved, some say saved by grace alone, some say saved by faith alone. who is right? God is ONE and there is only one Truth (His name is Jesus). So, who is right? And by what authority is this person/group right? I think we both know the answer…

~Praise be to Jesus Christ…

…now and forever!

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

Dear Sir,

*Lets take a look at what the Bible is saying. *

Eph 2:4-10**4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The have been saved in verse 5 is in the perfect tense which expresses the present permanent state as a result of a past action. Because believers have been made alive (v.5a) spiritually with Christ, they have been and are saved. They can never lose that which has been given to them through faith in Christ, their permanent salvation.

*The perfect tense expresses permanence not a temporary state. Salvation is a done deal to those who by faith accept God’s free gift of eternal life. God’s purpose in our redemption is not simply to rescue us from hell. His ultimate purpose in our salvation is that for all eternity the church might glorify God’s grace (Eph 1:6, 12,14). So, if God has an eternal purpose for us all to fulfill, He will keep us (not us trying to keep ourselves saved through self effort) for all eternity. Since we have not been saved by our good works, we cannot be lost by our bad works. Grace means salvation completely apart from any merit or works on our part. Grace means that God does it all for Jesus’ sake! Our salvation is a gift of God(The word that in Eph 2:8, in the Greek, is neuter; while faith is feminine. Therefore that cannot refer to faith. It refers to the whole experience of salvation, including faith.) Salvation is a gift, not a reward. *

*Salvation cannot be “of works” because the work of salvation has already been completed on the cross. This is the work that God does for us, and it is a finished work (Jn 17:1-4; 19:30). We can add nothing to it (Heb 10:1-14); we dare take nothing from it. When Jesus died, the veil of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom, signifying that the way to God was now open. There is no more need for earthly sacrifices. One sacrifice - the Lamb of God - has finished the great work of salvation. God did it all, and He did by His grace. *

Darrel

Hello Dear Brother in Christ,

Lets see what else the bible is saying:

and authority to interpret scripture?

2 Peter 3:16 KJV As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction

Matt 18:17 KJV And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Tim 3:15 KJV But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Thess 3:6 KJV Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the **tradition **which he received of us

Salvation comes through grace and through obedience to Christ:

Matt 7:21 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt 19:17 KJV And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

Eph 2:10 KJV For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

prevous response continued:

I agree with you totally that Christ did it all and we are saved by His grace. Nothing we do earns that salvation. However, we MUST accept that grace and follow His instruction which is passed on through the Church He established and the apostles to whom He gave authority. We must submit to Christ and keep His commandments. This is not optional. It is a beautiful mystery that we cannot do anything to earn this salvation but we must walk in the light of Christ and His Church

God bless you in your continued search for truth!

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

Originally Posted by

DLC

Dear Sir,
*Roman Catholics, through an endless succession of various rituals and “meritorious” works, seek to earn God’s favor and make himself acdeptable to God. Somehow, you have missed the fact that those who trust in Christ are laready made acceptable to God forever -with nothing anyone can do to add to it.*Through faith in Christ a believer is complete in Christ and bless with every blessing that heaven could ever give.

*2 Cor 5:21**21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, *so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Heb 10:14-15
*14 For by one offering ****He has perfected for all time ****those who are sanctified. *

*Col 2:9-10*9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete

*Eph 1:3**3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, *who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ

Praose God for all that He has done for the believer in Christ

Darrel

Somehow you seem to not be reading my messages. Please go back and read. I repeatedly state that we are saved by the grace of Christ alone. Your pursuit to disprove Catholics has obviously clouded your pursuit of Truth and the true teachings of Christ.

Good day.

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

Has anyone else been receiving these PM’s???

 

[MarcoPolo]

At quick glance, this person is applying classic “absolutization” of Scripture passages of one over another in such a way that disharmonizes them. We are told in more passages than I can count that we must do good and those who do receive eternal life and that once we believe we can still be cut off if we fall from grace.

He said:

Roman Catholics, through an endless succession of various rituals and “meritorious” works, seek to earn God’s favor and make himself acdeptable to God.

Many non-Catholics have a very difficult time grasping that Catholics teach that we can do nothing without grace to earn our salvation, and rather the kind of faith we must employ by our grace is one that works through charity. These concepts are inseparable.

They also have a very difficult time understanding that Catholics do “various rituals” because Christ told us to. (Incidentally, following Christ is a perpetual work).