Any non catholic: what is your opinion on Mary the Mother of God?

[helloeveryone]

A very blessed woman indeed and obediant to God.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

So you know for a fact that the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary, yet you don’t know what the other part of the verse or chapter means?

Actually, look at Revelations 12:9 – “the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan.”

And what else could “clothed with the sun with the moon under feet mean” especially when the next to verse provide the Child (sun) and the dragon (moon)? I admit it was just speculation, but the context is pretty clear.

Can you actually give a legitimate reason why my reasoning is wrong? Or are you just going to tell me I am wrong?

So its okay for you to guess at scripture, but if someone from another denomination does this then its heresy?

If it is in fact Mary, what else could sun and moon inthat context possibly mean? I am not guessing here.

Heresy is defined by a Catholic teaching something opposed to Church doctrine. Your guess are not heresies

Let’s not forget about 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The Church does the interpreting for me. I just provide the backup. I am well-aware of that verse.

How about we let the bible define itself.

That has not worked out too well for Christianity.

Besides, Scripture views Scripture differently then you.

Acts 8:30-31 – “‘Do you understand what you are reading?’ [The eunuch] replied, ‘How can I, unless someone instructs me?’”

I would rather let the Holy Spirit and Christ’s Church teach me.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

A very blessed woman indeed and obediant to God

I could not have said it any better.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Seems like a “wild jump” jump to me, despite your claiming otherwise. This approach seems revisionist (with prophecies in mind) in the extreme. My church of my upbringing certainly never asserted anything of the kind. In fact, I never heard of this kind of thing until I heard it stated here at CA once before.

Yeah, I had never heard of it either until I became Catholic.

Was the pain of childbirth also about Mary’s pain of delivering Jesus and others? It says pain in bringing forth “children,” (in the plural) so this must mean that Mary had other children, right?

Where does it say pain in bring forth “children”? I must have missed it it mine.

In any case, yes. Her children are those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

 

[MartinJordan]

Just a little food for thought. Jesus in one of his last words calls out to Mary “Woman here is your son and looking at his Disciple that he loved ;here is your Mother”

So beautiful and so sad, but gives us ALL hope. I truly believe Mary is that Woman in Revelation that gives birth and what who is mentioned in Genesis.

It was common to call a lady even if she was the mother “Woman”. Which certain Protestants take it out of context.

MJ

 

[LiftHimUp]

Gregg

Maybe I wasn’t clear when I said let the bible define itself. When you have a textbook with a bold word(s) in it. You don’t guess at what the word means. You can go to the glossary and let the book tell you what it means. The bible does the same. It has it’s own glossary, it was divinely inspired. When the bible gives symbols, one does not need “authority” to interpret it for them. The bible does that and here are a few examples.

1.When the bible uses “waters” in prophecy, you don’t guess at what waters are, you let the bible define itself or tell you what it symbolizes.
-Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

1. Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
2. Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
3. Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
4. See Daniel 8 Clearly Daniel saw something more than two animals fighting. It had a meaning and significance and the bible lets you know what this symbolized.

Now can you see that the bible defines itself. Those were only five examples. The bible has hundreds of ways it defines itself but one must study line upon line upon precept upon precept. With that being said you don’t need the church to interpret these things for you.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I am not smart enough for that. I need someone with authority to teach me.

 

[Peter_John]

Gregg

Maybe I wasn’t clear when I said let the bible define itself. When you have a textbook with a bold word(s) in it. You don’t guess at what the word means. You can go to the glossary and let the book tell you what it means. The bible does the same. It has it’s own glossary, it was divinely inspired. When the bible gives symbols, one does not need “authority” to interpret it for them. The bible does that and here are a few examples.

1.When the bible uses “waters” in prophecy, you don’t guess at what waters are, you let the bible define itself or tell you what it symbolizes.
-Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

1. Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
2. Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
3. Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
4. See Daniel 8 Clearly Daniel saw something more than two animals fighting. It had a meaning and significance and the bible lets you know what this symbolized.

Now can you see that the bible defines itself. Those were only five examples. The bible has hundreds of ways it defines itself but one must study line upon line upon precept upon precept. With that being said you don’t need the church to interpret these things for you.

If I understand this correctly you are talking about editorial features in the Bible that are not actually a part of the Biblical text but are commentary which may depend on how well the people who put a specific edition of the Bible together understand it – I am referrign to things like words being in bolc, cross-refernces etc. These are useful but can be very subjective.

 

[larkin31]

Yeah, I had never heard of it either until I became Catholic.

So, the Catholic Church teaches what you have been saying here? Is there a Catechism on the idea that the word “woman” in Genesis 3:15 is actually a specific reference to Mary, mother of Jesus, rather than to Eve? And that the “seed” referenced means Jesus?

 

[Elena_Wayne]

carm.org/roman-catholicism

A protestant site MARY is one of the topics discussed if you want to learn about why Protestants view Mary, the way they do.

 

[Esdra]

Indeed, that is not the same woman as Mary. You are right.

If you will see it in context, you will note that that woman is NOT the same woman as in Revelations 12, the mother of the offspring (those who do God’s will and bear witness to Christ). The woman in Revelations 12 is Mary. The same Mary that is the Mother of Christ. The same Mary that is Mother of His Body, the Church. The same Mary that is the Mother of all Christians that keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Christ. That is the Mary we are talking about.

Revelations 17 could be speaking about the “queen of heaven” in the Old Testament (I forgot where). She is not even in heaven but some people called her the queen of heaven depsite the atrocities done by her. The angel even explains how bad the woman in Revelations 17 is.

The Queen of Heaven in the OT is in Jeremiah 7:16-19

16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:3 is unique because here you have a beast (in prophecy is a king or kingdom see Daniel 7:23) and a woman (which is a church). This means that you have a church-state nation. A woman (church) rides the beast (kingdom)

Whats does any of this have to do with the Catholic Church or Mary? Sounds to me as if you have some preconceived notion about the Blessed Mother and the Cathoilc Chrurch. Care to share them?

 

[GaryTaylor]

So, the Catholic Church teaches what you have been saying here? Is there a Catechism on the idea that the word “woman” in Genesis 3:15 is actually a specific reference to Mary, mother of Jesus, rather than to Eve? And that the “seed” referenced means Jesus?

The verse isn’t about just Eve. But about “thy seed and Her seed”. So the question would be, since we are all related to Adam and Eve. Who is God talking about? Well the snake/serpent is for sure defined by Christ, the Apostle Paul and John in Revelation. And Adam and Eve are for sure. So theres an existing issue now, in real time with the Serpent and his followers and with Gods creation…MANKIND. Adam is Man, Eve is Woman.

Now since Adam and Eve are disobediant, who corrects this mistake in Biblical History? Jesus Christ and the Blessed Mother RIght? . Just as the Bible teachs and the Apostle Paul states.

Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.“The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God. Death makes its entrance into human history with Adam and Eve. And through Mary and Jesus disobedience is corrected by their obedience. Mary and Jesus Christ “are” Gods plan. Though Mary is human and Christ Divine/Human Natures combined. The plan to begin with by God is Mary before it could be Christo.

Disobeying Gods command was Adam and Eve’s original Sin. They complicate the issue for not taking responsibility for their actions. Adam blames Eve, Eve blames the Snake and “no-one” ever repents? No “I’m Sorry, we made a mistake” none of that. Actually pretty common human behavior when you get right down to it. Also the first teaching in the Catholic grammer schools…Honesty.

The relationship to Genesis coincides with Revelation chapter 11,12. Mary is the New Ark who’s obedience permits the obedience of Jesus Christ to become a reality. The obedience of Christ and Mary resolves the disobediance of Adam and Eve.

Pauls writes in Romans 5:20 "The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more”

"We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, “by propagation, not by imitation” and that it is. . . ‘proper to each’

Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents

In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory, with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple.

In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures [types]. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and “overshadows” her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the “cloud came and overshadowed” Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and “a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!”’ Just as Mary states at Cana “Do whatever He tell you” Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord “overshadowed” the ark and filled the tabernacle

It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.

God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark [Ex. 25-30]. It was a place where God himself would dwell [Ex. 25:8]. God wanted his words — inscribed on stone — housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word — Jesus — to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?

The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke’s account of the annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert [Num. 10:34; Deut. 33:12; Ps. 91:4] and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant [Ex. 40:35], so now the shadow of the Most High envelopes and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary [Luke 1:35]

Compare David [1 Sam.-6 and 2 Sam. 6] and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord” (Luke 1:39-45).
Here are the parallels.

So to answer your above question Yes, Mary is one who Satan wages’s war with today.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Oh I almost forgot, the CCC…

CCC 2676- heres a part of it…“Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is 'the dwelling of God . . . with men”’

Gregory the Wonder Worker [213- 270} wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” [Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary].

Athanasius of Alexandria [296-373] was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” [Homily of the Papyrus of Turin].

Is this Catholic Catechism and Church teaching? Of course , and it derived from Holy Scripture. Its been also taught for close to 2000-years.

 

[larkin31]

The verse isn’t about just Eve. But about “thy seed and Her seed”. So the question would be, since we are all related to Adam and Eve. Who is God talking about? Well the snake/serpent is for sure defined by Christ, the Apostle Paul and John in Revelation. And Adam and Eve are for sure. So theres an existing issue now, in real time with the Serpent and his followers and with Gods creation…MANKIND. Adam is Man, Eve is Woman.

Now since Adam and Eve are disobediant, who corrects this mistake in Biblical History? Jesus Christ and the Blessed Mother RIght? . Just as the Bible teachs and the Apostle Paul states.

Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.“The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God. Death makes its entrance into human history with Adam and Eve. And through Mary and Jesus disobedience is corrected by their obedience. Mary and Jesus Christ “are” Gods plan. Though Mary is human and Christ Divine/Human Natures combined. The plan to begin with by God is Mary before it could be Christo.

Disobeying Gods command was Adam and Eve’s original Sin. They complicate the issue for not taking responsibility for their actions. Adam blames Eve, Eve blames the Snake and “no-one” ever repents? No “I’m Sorry, we made a mistake” none of that. Actually pretty common human behavior when you get right down to it. Also the first teaching in the Catholic grammer schools…Honesty.

The relationship to Genesis coincides with Revelation chapter 11,12. Mary is the New Ark who’s obedience permits the obedience of Jesus Christ to become a reality. The obedience of Christ and Mary resolves the disobediance of Adam and Eve.

Pauls writes in Romans 5:20 "The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more”

"We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, “by propagation, not by imitation” and that it is. . . ‘proper to each’

Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents

In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory, with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple.

In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures [types]. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and “overshadows” her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the “cloud came and overshadowed” Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and “a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!”’ Just as Mary states at Cana “Do whatever He tell you” Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord “overshadowed” the ark and filled the tabernacle

It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.

God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark [Ex. 25-30]. It was a place where God himself would dwell [Ex. 25:8]. God wanted his words — inscribed on stone — housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word — Jesus — to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?

The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke’s account of the annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert [Num. 10:34; Deut. 33:12; Ps. 91:4] and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant [Ex. 40:35], so now the shadow of the Most High envelopes and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary [Luke 1:35]

Compare David [1 Sam.-6 and 2 Sam. 6] and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord” (Luke 1:39-45).
Here are the parallels.

So to answer your above question Yes, Mary is one who Satan wages’s war with today.

I asked if there is Catholic Catechism stating that the “woman” being addressed in Genesis 3 is “Mary,” mother of Jesus. I appreciate your attempt at explanation, but I was asking the other poster if there is Catholic catechism on this, since he stated that he had never heard the idea before he became a Catholic.

Catechism?

 

[larkin31]

Oh I almost forgot, the CCC…

CCC 2676- heres a part of it…“Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is 'the dwelling of God . . . with men”’

Gregory the Wonder Worker [213- 270} wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” [Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary].

Athanasius of Alexandria [296-373] was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” [Homily of the Papyrus of Turin].

Is this Catholic Catechism and Church teaching? Of course , and it derived from Holy Scripture. Its been also taught for close to 2000-years.

None of this addresses my question.

 

[elvisman]

Correction: Genesis 3:15 is prophecy and according to the bible, in prophecy, a woman is a church. So this scripture is not referring to Mary.

Correction: Jesus NEVER referred to the Church as a Woman or THE Woman or Woman at all.
Jesus referred to his mother as Woman over and over again.

 

[GaryTaylor]

None of this addresses my question.

The post before does which maybe you didn’t read:shrug:

St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary “the Mother of the living” and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary

Yes thats Catholic Church teaching the Coronation of Mary in Revelations.

 

[elvisman]

Hi,

as I am at the moment doubting what I have written before, I’ll quote my pastor’s email answer here. Then you can judge yourself if this is Nestorianism:

I’d like to note that this text hasn’t been written by me, but is a translation (by me) what Pastor Willy, the Baptist pastor in the Church I’ve been attending since 2009, wrote to me in response if “we”, the Baptist Church, believe that Mary is the Mother of God!

---

Wow - where to begin.

**First of all - the Church has *never ***referred to Mary as a female Savior. That is a distortion of what we believe. As for the rejection of Mary as a mediator or intercessor - this goes against Scripture itself.

First of all, Jesus is our only mediator because only hisblood is the perfect sacrifice before the Father for our sins. However, we are all called upon to be intercessors (James 5:16, 1 John 5:16). A common charge against praying to the saints for intercession is that they are dead and cannot hear us. This is a denial of 1 Cor. 12:12-27, which tells us that we are all parts of the Body of Christ. In Mark 12:28 and Luke 20:38, Jesus tells his critics that *"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” *In God – ALL are alive. In Heb. 12:1, St. Paul tells us that “we are surrounded by so a great cloud of witnesses.” The Transfiguration of Jesus is proof that the “dead” are indeed alive (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36).

If we are indeed all parts of the Body of Christ, then asking a saint in Heaven to pray for us is the same as asking a person here on earth to do the same. In fact, the only difference is that those in Heaven have been made perfect and righteous because nothing unclean can enter Heaven (Rev. 21:27). *“The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful” *(James 5:16). Although, we on earth have not yet been made perfect, we are ALL called upon to intercede for each other - even Mary and the Saints in heaven.

---

****Finally – Rev. 5:****8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing.

 

[elvisman]

Seems like a “wild jump” jump to me, despite your claiming otherwise. This approach seems revisionist (with prophecies in mind) in the extreme. My church of my upbringing certainly never asserted anything of the kind. In fact, I never heard of this kind of thing until I heard it stated here at CA once before.

Was the pain of childbirth also about Mary’s pain of delivering Jesus and others? It says pain in bringing forth “children,” (in the plural) so this must mean that Mary had other children, right?

What you are failing to understand is the polyvalent symbolism in this passage. The very same can be said of the failure of many non-Catholics to understand the polyvalent symbolism in Rev. 12:1-2, which points to Mary, Israel and the Church. In short, polyvalent symbolism is when you have multiple prophecies fulfilled in a single type or symbol.

In this way, we see that Gen 3:15 points to more explicitly to Mary with regards to her offspring - then to all of womankind with regards to bearing children.