Any non catholic: what is your opinion on Mary the Mother of God?

[MSSheBear]

Are you considering Catholicism?

Actually, I have been thinking about it. Although some other theological issues which are not the subject of this thread slow me up.

 

[MSSheBear]

How do you even get to the idea that not beleiving about Mary as the Catholics do bring into question Jesus’ diety?

I’ve talked with liberal Protestants who start questioning Mary’s status and then slide into saying Jesus was just a good moral teacher. It doesn’t necessarily follow that Jesus wasn’t God if he had a sinful mother, the current Protestant teaching, but I doubt if many people would hold the Catholic position about Mary and then deny that Jesus is deity.

 

[elvisman]

How do you even get to the idea that not beleiving about Mary as the Catholics do bring into question Jesus’ diety?

**Because this is precisely what happened in the 4th century, necessitating the 1st Council of Ephesus. In 431, the Eastern Patriarch, Nestorius taught the heresy that Jesus was not really God, but that God only dwelt within him as in a temple.

**Not only did the Council find it necessary to define Christ’s 2 united natures in the Hypostatic Union - it also defined Mary as Theotokos (God Bearer). **
It is correct to call her the Mother of God instead of the mother of christ’s human nature. Firstly because Jesus united to himself two natures - Fully divine and fully human.

Secondly, because Mary did not give birth to a nature - no mother does. Mary gave birth to a Person - the 2nd Person in the holy Trinity.

 

[elvisman]

I’m assuing the question is about the specific title “Mother of God.” On one hand the statement that Mary is theotokos (God-bearer) seems consistent with orthodoxy, but on the other, the statement to me challenges the orthodox demand that we believe the Son to be eternally begotten. “Mother of Jesus Christ” would be sufficient for me.

I’ve also always been a little disturbed that the title was rejected by a huge chunk of Christianity in the fifth century, maybe the majority even, and I’m assuming for good reason–but I’ve never actually researched the whole issue at any great detail. My resistance is probably because I’m fearing all the debate about the exact nature of God Incarnate (as if we can put it into human words) will reduce the awesomeness of the event to some sort of speculative philosophical tedium.

I do think it’s sad that the church split over this title–I somehow don’t think Mary would have wanted that.

The Church split over Mary being called the Mother of God?
When did this happen?

 

[The_Sentry]

I will leave this open ended, because I want as many responses as possible. I am curious what our separated brethren think.

Those who deny that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God deny that her Son is God Incarnate. I hold her in the highest esteem of all the Saints! :thumbsup:

 

[anp1215]

Actually, I have been thinking about it. Although some other theological issues which are not the subject of this thread slow me up.

Prayers and blessings to you on this spiritual journey.

 

[ConsciousCoward]

I believe that Mary was used by the Lord to bring Jesus Christ, through whom believers are saved, into our world. I also believe that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, as I believe in the Trinity. I honestly am not a big fan of giving praise to Mary for the same reason that I am not a fan of giving praise to the saints: God should be the sole recipient of our praise.

Some humans are used by God on Earth, like the Apostles, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Noah, Moses, and many many more, but they always give praise back to God. The focus is not intended to be on them, but rather they live in a way that will bring praise to the Lord. They are merely tools to be used.

 

[NinjaSnark]

As a Protestant considering Catholicism, my feelings towards Mary have drastically changed in the last year.

A year ago, my husband and I were blessed with our first child, our son. I remember holding him one day when he was only a few weeks old and suddenly thinking of Mary. As I looked at my precious little boy I realized that if I had been Mary, and my son was the one that needed to die for the sins of the world, I probably would have said- “No way, God. Not mine. You’ll need to find someone else.” Once I became a mother- to my only child, my only son- I appreciated Mary so much more for her Christian example to me.

That isn’t what started my journey to consider Rome, but as my doctrinal issues with Mary started to fall, I decided to do a test to see if Mary leads people to Jesus as the RCC claims, or if she distracts them from Jesus as I thought- being Protestant. So, I started to pray the Rosary every day and meditate on the mysteries.

Now? I love Mary. I love loving someone who is important to Jesus. I know that if a friend of mine also loves my mom- we grow closer. I can see that in my walk with Jesus. Whether I ever become Catholic or not, I’ll walk away from this experience with a newfound love for Jesus’ Mom.

 

[elvisman]

As a Protestant considering Catholicism, my feelings towards Mary have drastically changed in the last year.

A year ago, my husband and I were blessed with our first child, our son. I remember holding him one day when he was only a few weeks old and suddenly thinking of Mary. As I looked at my precious little boy I realized that if I had been Mary, and my son was the one that needed to die for the sins of the world, I probably would have said- “No way, God. Not mine. You’ll need to find someone else.” Once I became a mother- to my only child, my only son- I appreciated Mary so much more for her Christian example to me.

That isn’t what started my journey to consider Rome, but as my doctrinal issues with Mary started to fall, I decided to do a test to see if Mary leads people to Jesus as the RCC claims, or if she distracts them from Jesus as I thought- being Protestant. So, I started to pray the Rosary every day and meditate on the mysteries.

Now? I love Mary. I love loving someone who is important to Jesus. I know that if a friend of mine also loves my mom- we grow closer. I can see that in my walk with Jesus. Whether I ever become Catholic or not, I’ll walk away from this experience with a newfound love for Jesus’ Mom.

 

[gcnuss]

**Because this is *precisely ***what happened in the 4th century, necessitating the 1st Council of Ephesus. In 431, the Eastern Patriarch, Nestorius taught the heresy that Jesus was not really God, but that God only dwelt within him as in a temple.

Not only did the Council find it necessary to define Christ’s 2 united natures in the Hypostatic Union - it also defined Mary as Theotokos (God Bearer).
It is correct to call her the Mother of God instead of the mother of christ’s human nature. Firstly because Jesus united to himself two natures - Fully divine and fully human.

Secondly, because Mary did not give birth to a nature - no mother does. Mary gave birth to a Person - the 2nd Person in the holy Trinity.

Sounds pretty good to me.

 

[Roy5]

I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage, and am interested in reconciliation.

The Catholic view of Mary has been a problem for me. Why?

1. Mary is blessed, of course, and she merits the respect of all Christians. However, it would appear that Mariology mushroomed over the years. It wasn't until 1864, for example, that Pius IX defined the Immaculate Conception as an official doctrine. And it wasn't until 1950 that Pius XII defined the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. These doctrines have been formulated from logic, but without a word of support from scripture.

2. One can easily become suspicious that this increased focus on Mary was influenced by the importance of goddesses in the Greco-Roman world as well as in some of the mystery religions that rivaled early Christianity.

3. It troubles me that the most popular prayer among Catholics if the 'Hail, Mary' rather than the prayer Christ taught us to say, True, the first part of the prayer is taken from scripture, but the last part was added and is where the problem exists.

 4. Apart from the Nativity and the Crucifixion, Mary is noted only three times in the gospels. In the first she and Joseph went a full day's journey from Jerusalem before they discovered that Jesus, 12 years old, was not among them. What parent would do that today? The other two references seem to be almost dismissive of Mary. Read them for yourself: Matt. 12:46-50 and John 2:4. "Who is my mother?" "Woman, what have I to do with you...?"

5. Paul wrote many epistles, and there were other epistle writers, too. Paul, in particular, gave instructions on doctrine and such. None of the epistles so much as mention Mary. If she were so central to early Christian worship, how could that have happened?

6. Mary should be honored, but I've discovered that most Protestants feel that Catholicism has elevated her too much. Go into about any Catholic Church and there is her statue and/or a massive painting of her on the ceiling or elsewhere. 

7. Catholicism really goes far when it claims that she never committed a sin, while the Bible clearly says "all have sinned'. I guess I don't understand why it would be so serious if Mary were human like the rest of us and occasionally had some thought or committed some deed that was at least a minor sin. 

8. One wonders if Mary would want all this adulation.

 

[Dokimas]

I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage, and am interested in reconciliation.

The Catholic view of Mary has been a problem for me. Why?

1. Mary is blessed, of course, and she merits the respect of all Christians. However, it would appear that Mariology mushroomed over the years. It wasn't until 1864, for example, that Pius IX defined the Immaculate Conception as an official doctrine. And it wasn't until 1950 that Pius XII defined the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. These doctrines have been formulated from logic, but without a word of support from scripture.

2. One can easily become suspicious that this increased focus on Mary was influenced by the importance of goddesses in the Greco-Roman world as well as in some of the mystery religions that rivaled early Christianity.

3. It troubles me that the most popular prayer among Catholics if the 'Hail, Mary' rather than the prayer Christ taught us to say, True, the first part of the prayer is taken from scripture, but the last part was added and is where the problem exists.

 4. Apart from the Nativity and the Crucifixion, Mary is noted only three times in the gospels. In the first she and Joseph went a full day's journey from Jerusalem before they discovered that Jesus, 12 years old, was not among them. What parent would do that today? The other two references seem to be almost dismissive of Mary. Read them for yourself: Matt. 12:46-50 and John 2:4. "Who is my mother?" "Woman, what have I to do with you...?"

5. Paul wrote many epistles, and there were other epistle writers, too. Paul, in particular, gave instructions on doctrine and such. None of the epistles so much as mention Mary. If she were so central to early Christian worship, how could that have happened?

6. Mary should be honored, but I've discovered that most Protestants feel that Catholicism has elevated her too much. Go into about any Catholic Church and there is her statue and/or a massive painting of her on the ceiling or elsewhere. 

7. Catholicism really goes far when it claims that she never committed a sin, while the Bible clearly says "all have sinned'. I guess I don't understand why it would be so serious if Mary were human like the rest of us and occasionally had some thought or committed some deed that was at least a minor sin. 

8. One wonders if Mary would want all this adulation.

And I’m with you on #8.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Immaculate Conceptione was passed as a Doctrine in 1439 at the Council of Basel as was professed to be true by all Catholics at that time. It was forbidden to be taught. The Pope declared the Council invalid because Basel was not in fact a Ecumenical Council.

Trent 1545-1563 acknowledged that sin transmitted to the human race in accordance with the universal law of Original Sin did not apply to Mary. And was never the intention to include Mary in the accertion of the universal law of Original Sin.

Then 300 years later Pope Pius bull “Ineffabilis Deus” announced that “The Most Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin in the first moment of Her conception in a singular and priviledge of Almighty God, in consideration of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the Human Race, has been revealed by God and must, therefore, firmly and constantly be revealed by the faithful”

Then of course the 1950’s ex-cathedra doctrine also came.

The question you have ask yourself, considering the bottom line is “we are saved by Gods Grace alone”. Do you think all these guys made up a fairytales knowing that?

 

[PennyinCanada]

    4. Apart from the Nativity and the Crucifixion, Mary is noted only three times in the gospels. In the first she and Joseph went a full day's journey from Jerusalem before they discovered that Jesus, 12 years old, was not among them. What parent would do that today? The other two references seem to be almost dismissive of Mary. Read them for yourself: Matt. 12:46-50 and John 2:4. "Who is my mother?" "Woman, what have I to do with you...?"

  8. One wonders if Mary would want all this adulation.

I wondered about #4 myself and was told that a long journey, which can have thieves and robbers, were best done in a larger group than one couple and a boy, making an easy target. Likely there was a number of people going to Jerusalem and they traveled all together. Now with men and women traveling together, some privacy issues (how does one go to the bathroom on the road to Jerusalem?) must be handled and the men and women were somewhat separated, but going along together. Jesus, being 12, could be with mom or dad, and it may very likely be that Mary thought Jesus was with Joseph and Joseph thought he was with Mary. Maybe Mary was assisting an older woman along (or a mom with 3 small kids) or Joseph helping an older man and they were assuming that Jesus would of course stay with the group and not wander off into the crowd of people. He wasn’t a toddler after all but a young man.

As for praising Mary, she is like a clear sparkling vessel that the praise goes right through, like sunlight, straight to the Father’s heart.

If you complimented your friend on the lovely painting they did, the nice composition, the colors used, that it was a delight to behold, I think the Painter would be pleased that you appreciated the creation that He took time to mold and create, with love and attention. Both of you know which is the Master and which is the created item. Even if I said out loud, “Painting, I think you are the loveliest I’ve ever had the pleasure to see”, it would be said with the purpose of the Painter to hear, to give Him joy and please Him.

This is how I look at these things, for what they are worth.

Roy5, I think some of your concerns regarding Mary could be threads in themselves.
God bless. Penny

 

[MartinJordan]

I think No. 8 is question for those who believe in the Church’s teaching of the communion of Saints, otherwise imo could be considered some kind of sarcasm (I hope it isn’t).

As for the Bible mention of Mary, it was the Church tradition that gave the Bible. The same tradition that brought forward the dogma.

That said, all this doubts about Mary is “old hat”.

MJ

 

[elvisman]

1. One can easily become suspicious that this increased focus on Mary was influenced by the importance of goddesses in the Greco-Roman world as well as in some of the mystery religions that rivaled early Christianity.

Reading Alexander Hislop, I see.

This whole notion of Roman and/or Babylonian godess worship somehow being paralelled within the Catholic Church has been debunked not only by Catholic scholars but by Protestants scholars as well - including one former student of Hislop’s anti-Catholic tripe. As a former adherent to Hislop’s sloppy work, Ralph Woodrow finally discovered how preposterous this whole idea was, detailing it in his own book, “The Babylon Connection?”.

1. It troubles me that the most popular prayer among Catholics if the ‘Hail, Mary’ rather than the prayer Christ taught us to say, True, the first part of the prayer is taken from scripture, but the last part was added and is where the problem exists.

This is the most popular prayer among Catholics? Can I see the research statistics? Or is this just your own opinion?

**Secondly - please detail what is so disturbing about the second part of the Hail Mary. I would challenge you that it is completely Scriptural in that it is a petition for prayer from a member of the Body of Christ. Are we not told that as members of the Body of Christ **we are ALL called upon to be intercessors (James 5:16, 1 John 5:16)?

Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing. Why is Mary not allowed to pray for us?

 

[elvisman]

1. Catholicism really goes far when it claims that she never committed a sin, while the Bible clearly says "all have sinned’. I guess I don’t understand why it would be so serious if Mary were human like the rest of us and occasionally had some thought or committed some deed that was at least a minor sin.

Ummm . . . not exactly.
Go back and read Romans 3. Then, do a cross-reference to what he is actually quoting. ****Romans 3:10, 23 explicitly states: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” **

Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? St. Paul is speaking about those who trust in the Mosaic Law for their salvation.

In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”**

St. Paul was using inclusive language. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the carnival last year. He is referring to the mass of mankind but God can and does make exceptions for anybody he wishes. Paul is not even implying that every single person who ever lived has sinned.

T****he problem here is that you are trying to inject your own meaning into what Paul was actually talking about. That is eisegesis, friend - not exegesis . . .

 

[GaryTaylor]

I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage, and am interested in reconciliation.

The Catholic view of Mary has been a problem for me. Why?

1. Mary is blessed, of course, and she merits the respect of all Christians. However, it would appear that Mariology mushroomed over the years. It wasn't until 1864, for example, that Pius IX defined the Immaculate Conception as an official doctrine. And it wasn't until 1950 that Pius XII defined the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. These doctrines have been formulated from logic, but without a word of support from scripture.

2. One can easily become suspicious that this increased focus on Mary was influenced by the importance of goddesses in the Greco-Roman world as well as in some of the mystery religions that rivaled early Christianity.

3. It troubles me that the most popular prayer among Catholics if the 'Hail, Mary' rather than the prayer Christ taught us to say, True, the first part of the prayer is taken from scripture, but the last part was added and is where the problem exists.

 4. Apart from the Nativity and the Crucifixion, Mary is noted only three times in the gospels. In the first she and Joseph went a full day's journey from Jerusalem before they discovered that Jesus, 12 years old, was not among them. What parent would do that today? The other two references seem to be almost dismissive of Mary. Read them for yourself: Matt. 12:46-50 and John 2:4. "Who is my mother?" "Woman, what have I to do with you...?"

5. Paul wrote many epistles, and there were other epistle writers, too. Paul, in particular, gave instructions on doctrine and such. None of the epistles so much as mention Mary. If she were so central to early Christian worship, how could that have happened?

6. Mary should be honored, but I've discovered that most Protestants feel that Catholicism has elevated her too much. Go into about any Catholic Church and there is her statue and/or a massive painting of her on the ceiling or elsewhere. 

7. Catholicism really goes far when it claims that she never committed a sin, while the Bible clearly says "all have sinned'. I guess I don't understand why it would be so serious if Mary were human like the rest of us and occasionally had some thought or committed some deed that was at least a minor sin. 

8. One wonders if Mary would want all this adulation.

Roy #1 has been addressed by me above. #7 and #2 Elvis addressed. #8 is a non-issue which leads to speculation. Marys praying for all sinners. #6 is outragous statement that I also answered about. We would rather overstate Marys reality than understate it. It just makes good sense and its what Childen do in regards to there Parents, and at the Parents delight. How do you think your mother would feel about you if you reduced her role to insignificant? Same situation. Anyway

Number #6 Protestants “chose” to do this only in the last 100-years by large. In 1906 they were singing Hymns in Baptist Churchs for Mary, Mothers of Gods Intercession. I have the hymn here and have posted it before. Luther had no issue with Marys reality. So again we have misleading statements. Those who denied Mary also denied most all of the Ecumenical Councils and fell off at the 4th. Which means they don’t believe a great deal of Christianity anyway!

Number #3 is a most disturbing statement based on “zero” fact. In fact the “Our Father” is recited at the Catholic Mass and not the “Hail Mary”. Your not a little wrong but 100% wrong here.

Number #2 is also based on fast “google” searchs. The “Bible” has Paul involved in a riot over the issue of Diana in the Ephesians. So the “one” your speaking about is uneducated in History/Bible and leaping to conclusions. Dr. Pelikan’s “Mary Through the Centurys” goes into great detail on this topic. “Google” him and check out his education. And he is a “Lutheran”. Who dedicate’s His entire life to Mary taught at Yale for decades and received over 40 honorary Doctrates worldwide.

Number #1 you obviously didn’t know the history on which I added in my last post.

Number #5 is also wrong Paul does mention Mary through not by name.

By this point wouldn’t you say, its safe to conclude you need to do a bit more “hands on” research. Instead of listening to others and foolish fast “google” searchs. The Library for a couple bucks will give you a great education. And there is no Woman in History more covered than Mary, to date there are over 2500 biographys on Mary. No woman in the history of “mankind” had been more venerated in the “Arts” either. If you can think of “one”, come back and let us know.

“The Mary Myth” debate makes an interesting debate only. Bible, History and Doctrine all concur, as do the Mystics, Authors and Artists of “all christian” religions to the greater percentage. For example have you ever read what Edgar Cayce had to say about the Blessed Mother? His “gift” he credits to Marys intercession, the same Mary who appeared in person and gave Cayce the gift to “heal” as a result of his dedication to Bible and God. I gave you another example of Lutheran scholar above who’s father was also a Lutheran Preacher.

The longer you study Mary the faster you must conclude, either you are wrong or there a great deal of fakes and mislead scholars and Artists in mans last 2000 year history. Pretty to safe to say, your wrong in many regard’s, I hope just through these post’s you are starting to see a little anyway.

 

[Alix1912]

As a Lutheran here is what I think about Mary.

She is an amazing figure in the Christian Faith.
She is the Mother of Christ (who is God) therefore she is the Mother of God.
She and Joseph were charged to help raise Christ and teach him what it was to be human.
She was a virgin at Christ’s conception (if she remained so afterwards or had other kids…I don’t really care).
She was the one human God needed and selected to help bring his plan to completion…and she was a woman. (Seriously, the fact that modern secular feminists have not picked this up amazes me).
I don’t think asking for her intercession or honoring her in a church service is wrong. She is Christ’s mother and that was one of the most important roles in Christianity.

My thoughts on her and my study of her has become much more meaningful since I became a mom. I cannot imagine the faith she had to have had to do what she did. She not only endured public score when she was discovered to be pregnant, but she gave birth in a barn, and she had to stand by and watch her child die…knowing that even if she could save him, she couldn’t because then the whole world would have suffered.

Everytime I worry about being a good mom, I think about how she must have worried about all that as well, compounded by the fact that her child wasn’t just a normal child he was GOD. Talk about pressure to not make mistakes. When I worry about the job I’m doing I often reflect on the story of Mary and Joseph losing Christ for a couple days in the temple. It gives me comfort that even the two most important human parents in the world made mistakes too.

 

[JonNC]

As a Lutheran here is what I think about Mary.

She is an amazing figure in the Christian Faith.
She is the Mother of Christ (who is God) therefore she is the Mother of God.
She and Joseph were charged to help raise Christ and teach him what it was to be human.
She was a virgin at Christ’s conception (if she remained so afterwards or had other kids…I don’t really care).
She was the one human God needed and selected to help bring his plan to completion…and she was a woman. (Seriously, the fact that modern secular feminists have not picked this up amazes me).
I don’t think asking for her intercession or honoring her in a church service is wrong. She is Christ’s mother and that was one of the most important roles in Christianity.

My thoughts on her and my study of her has become much more meaningful since I became a mom. I cannot imagine the faith she had to have had to do what she did. She not only endured public score when she was discovered to be pregnant, but she gave birth in a barn, and she had to stand by and watch her child die…knowing that even if she could save him, she couldn’t because then the whole world would have suffered.

Everytime I worry about being a good mom, I think about how she must have worried about all that as well, compounded by the fact that her child wasn’t just a normal child he was GOD. Talk about pressure to not make mistakes. When I worry about the job I’m doing I often reflect on the story of Mary and Joseph losing Christ for a couple days in the temple. It gives me comfort that even the two most important human parents in the world made mistakes too.

On the bolded, I have not run accross too many Lutherans who will say this, but I generally agree. Of course, it is a perfectly Lutheran view to pray that God listen to her intercessions for those of us here on earth.

Jon