Any non catholic: what is your opinion on Mary the Mother of God?

[Thesealsareope]

Revelation
Chapter 121 1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman 2 clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. 3 3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, 4 with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. 4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days. 6 7 7 Then war broke out in heaven; Michael 8 and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, 8 but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, 9 who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed. For the accuser 10 of our brothers is cast out, who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time.” 13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, 11 so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half-year. 15 The serpent, 12 however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current. 16 But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed out of its mouth. 17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. 13 (18) It took its position 14 on the sand of the sea.
usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation12.htm

This passage is a metaphor on many levels. on one it represents the Church, on another Mary as the symbol of the Church, it is about the persecutions in early Christian History.

The book of revelation says many things and quoting it did not answer any questions I had.
Where is Mary now?She is in the grave.
Can praying to a dead Pope bring benefits?No as scripture says we go to the grave,.
Is Jesus only in the RC church as claimed?Well scripture says when 2 or 3 meet in His name He will be there so apparently that teaching is false also.
Is the RC church the one true church?Well Scripture says otherwise and the teaching of the church say otherwise.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

No I didnt think what you said.But no one will answer.The bulk of interpretations of Christianity by ALL denominations is false.
So i ask you.Why have a resurrection?

Sure you say that now. I offered a scripture verse, that’s it. You quoted it and assumed that it was talking about people in heaven and asked me why have a resurrection if there are people in heaven

Read the verse again. Where is this taking place? Where is Christ’s thrown? Chapter 5 follows Chapter 4 in which we get this:

After this I looked, and lo, in heaven an open door! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said,** "Come up hither, and I will show you what must take place after this**.

Followed by the scene that I quoted:

and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. Then one of the elders said to me, “Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth; and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.” **Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, ** saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” **And I heard every creature in heaven **and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

How could this scene be taking place in heaven given your beliefs?

God bless you

 

[Dokimas]

I asked Thesealsareope- not you - HOW do I pray to Mary. I didn’t ask, WHAT do I pray. He said that we should pray to the Ark as we pray to Mary.

Secondly - HOW am I contradicting myself?

You respond to me all the time after I’ve commented to others. Are you impling I can’t comment to you when you’ve responded to someone else?

I told you how you pray to Mary.

You have NOT responded to your FALSE comment accusing me of calling you an idoliter.

Read my post again carefully. I spelled out your seeming contradiction.

 

[Dokimas]

As John pointed out - the Transfiguration CLEARLY proves you wrong.

I would also add that Heb. 12:1 tells us that “we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”** and that we are to live accordingly. A witness is somebody who sees and hears things (Acts 1:8, 2:32) – otherwise they are
not witnesses. Revelation 5:8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God.

Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily into heaven. Are they dead?

I think a good case can be made that the witnesses of Heb 12 are the dead saints of Heb 11.

May I add to your point?

Of course there’s Lazarus and the rich man. They were conscious. (I hope no one tells me it was just a parable. Parables don’t mention specific people.)

 

[Dokimas]

Ok.Lets clear up the myth that the first time Jesus will be seen is coming on the clouds.The Scriptures clearly show that He will be born as a baby again ,grow up become a man start preaching and then die and THEN come on the clouds.
Secondly the Scriptures clearly show that tribulation is 3.5 years not 7 and that the abomination that causes desolation is Jesus not satan.
The problem is no-one will read the Holy Scriptures in Greek or Hebrew and argue about them based on the bad english translations.

Mt 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.

Here’s a verse that seems to contradict that Jesus will be born a second time.

I’m with Elvis that much of the NT seems to contradict your claim.

 

[Dokimas]

Isaiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
**PSALM 6
**5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
1 Thessalonians 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
My question is simple.Why bother having a resurrection?

What rises at the resurrection (rapture)? The persons body.

We were created in God’s image: God is triune; so are we. Our soul and spirit goes to heaven upon death, IMO, as I’ve understood the Bible.

 

[1364]

Hello 1234 and welcome to the forums. I know your profile says that you are Protestant but would you mind sharing what your denomination is? Only if your comfortable. I think I have an idea but with what you wrote I am curious.

How are these beliefs you have about Mary accepted with those you worship with?

God bless you

Certainty! I am currently in the process of finding a new church (and denomination) that fits my views on Mary. I had gone to a Presbyterian church for many years and found that they had very little respect for the Virgin Mary.

My views weren’t accepted at all, and they tried to make it clear to me that I was “worshiping” Mary by wearing a miraculous medal and praying the Rosary. I just told them that it helped my relationship with God, then I left that church and haven’t been there since.

So, I don’t have any idea what God has planned for my future church life, but I am currently church-less.

 

[JonNC]

OK.My opinion on Mary is as the Holy Scriptures say.Her name will be blessed for all time.But when she died she ceased to think.Like all others she did not have an immortal soul she WAS a living soul.When she died she lay in the grave and will lie there until the day of resurrection when she will live an eternal life on Earth with all others who are saved just as the Bible teaches.

This doesn’t speak to the topic either. The topic is what is your opinion on Mary the Mother of God? The early councils of the entire Church declared, in response to heresy, her to be the Holy Theotokos, Mother of God, God-bearer. What is your opinion on the topic?

Jon

 

[Peter_John]

The book of revelation says many things and quoting it did not answer any questions I had.
Where is Mary now?She is in the grave.
Can praying to a dead Pope bring benefits?No as scripture says we go to the grave,.
Is Jesus only in the RC church as claimed?Well scripture says when 2 or 3 meet in His name He will be there so apparently that teaching is false also.
Is the RC church the one true church?Well Scripture says otherwise and the teaching of the church say otherwise.

So your affirmation is simply that death is the end. There is nothing after that. Am I correct. If so, why do beleive in God?

 

[elvisman]

You respond to me all the time after I’ve commented to others. Are you impling I can’t comment to you when you’ve responded to someone else?

I told you how you pray to Mary.

You have NOT responded to your FALSE comment accusing me of calling you an idoliter.

Read my post again carefully. I spelled out your seeming contradiction.

You can comment on any of my posts.
I was merely addressing your claim that I asked YOU a question - no big deal. I wasn’t denying the fact that I pray to Mary - I was only asking HOW Thesealsareope thought I did. Hence - I never said that YOU called me an idolator because I wasn’t addressing you.

**We don’**t worship Mary in our prayers to her - as that is reserved for God alone. They are merely petitions for help, which the Hail Mary is.

 

[elvisman]

I think a good case can be made that the witnesses of Heb 12 are the dead saints of Heb 11.

Sure - because they are only dead in Body aren’t they.

May I add to your point?

Of course there’s Lazarus and the rich man. They were conscious. (I hope no one tells me it was just a parable. Parables don’t mention specific people.)

I think that is a GREAT point.
**Some theologians agree with you that Lazarus was an actual person because he is the only one in all of the parables that is referred to by name.

 

[elvisman]

No I didnt think what you said.But no one will answer.The bulk of interpretations of Christianity by ALL denominations is false.
So i ask you.Why have a resurrection?

So, you believe that all of the Church Fathers werewrong in their interpretations?
Remember that they DID read the Greek manuscripts.

Your spiritual pride can be summed up in TWO verses of Scripture:
2 Peter 3:15-16
**And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. **

 

[elvisman]

OK.My opinion on Mary is as the Holy Scriptures say.Her name will be blessed for all time.But when she died she ceased to think.Like all others she did not have an immortal soul she WAS a living soul.When she died she lay in the grave and will lie there until the day of resurrection when she will live an eternal life on Earth with all others who are saved just as the Bible teaches.

Soul-sleep is merely another invention - a Protestant aberration.
The Scriptures themselves prove you wrong. There are MANY other passages that blow your position away: Eccl. 11:9, Luke 23:43, Acts 1:25, 2 Cor. 5, Heb. 9:27, Phile. 1:21, Rev. 20:4-6, to name a few.

You live under the FALSE impression that the Scriptures can be at odds with themselves - contradictory. They CANNOT. They must be harmonious or Christianity falls like a house of cards. YOUR belief system IS that house of cards.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Originally Posted by Thesealsareope
No I didnt think what you said.But no one will answer.The bulk of interpretations of Christianity by ALL denominations is false.
So i ask you.Why have a resurrection?”

Actually this depend on where you fall off at the 8 Ecumenical Councils. Its safe to say, pretty low on the list. Are there “any” you hold as belief?

As far as resurrection? Simply Bible…

Romans 6:8-11
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus

Philippians 3:10-12
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Matthew 27:50-53
And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people

Matthew 28:1-10
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”

So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

Mark 16:1-8
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”

But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’ "

Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

And so forth.

 

[larkin31]

for the actual topic of this thread, let this non-Catholic state that Mary likely had to put up with a lot of stress knowing that she was raising the Messiah. No? I mean, can you imagine such a burden? A realistic account of the life of Mary would be very interesting…

 

[JonNC]

Soul-sleep is merely another invention - a Protestant aberration.
**The Scriptures themselves **prove you wrong. There are MANY other passages that blow your position away: Eccl. 11:9, Luke 23:43, Acts 1:25, 2 Cor. 5, Heb. 9:27, Phile. 1:21, Rev. 20:4-6, to name a few.

You live under the FALSE impression that the Scriptures can be at odds with themselves - contradictory. They CANNOT. They must be harmonious or Christianity falls like a house of cards. YOUR belief system IS that house of cards.

Hi Elvisman,
You’ve been carrying the water against some interesting viewpoints, and I thank you for it.
One interesting note I found about “Soul Sleep”. Eusebius wrote:

The Dissension of the Arabians. “About the same time others arose in Arabia, putting forward a doctrine foreign to the truth. They said that during the present time the human soul dies and perishes with the body, but that at the time of the resurrection they will be renewed together. And at that time also a synod of considerable size assembled, and Origen, being again invited there, spoke publicly on the question with such effect that the opinions of those who had formerly fallen were changed.” (Ecclesiastical History VI,37)

Apparently, the idea has been around a lot longer than protestants.

Jon

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Certainty! I am currently in the process of finding a new church (and denomination) that fits my views on Mary. I had gone to a Presbyterian church for many years and found that they had very little respect for the Virgin Mary.

My views weren’t accepted at all, and they tried to make it clear to me that I was “worshiping” Mary by wearing a miraculous medal and praying the Rosary. I just told them that it helped my relationship with God, then I left that church and haven’t been there since.

So, I don’t have any idea what God has planned for my future church life, but I am currently church-less.

Thanks 1364. Welcome to the forums and may God bless you on your journey.

 

[pablope]

Isaiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
**PSALM 6
[/These are a false teaching and a false Gospel.
While people may not want to hear that it is the truth.It is nice to think our loved ones are in heaven right now but the truth is they are in the grave waiting for the day of resurrection.
I was told today that Jesus is ONLY in the RC church.they cannot be serious with what they teach.I am not trying to destroy faith.I am trying to teach the truth because time is short.
So where is Mary?She is in the grave waiting for the day of resurrection.

May I suggest that you start your own thread on what and why you believe the CC is in error regarding the resurrection and saints in heaven. And provide your scriptural proof. You are getting limited responses here as this is about Mary.**
[/quote]

 

[Dokimas]

Hence - I never said that YOU called me an idolator because I wasn

’t addressing you.

[SIGN]
Originally Posted by Dokimas
The “Hail Mary” is a prayer isn’t it? Who is it addressed to? [/SIGN]

Your response to me:

Ahhh - just what I though. Failure to understand.

Protestants often say that to “pray” to somebody in heaven to ask them to for pray for us is idolatry because prayer is reserved for God alone. This is a complete failure to understand the word.

You thought I failed to understand.

Saying the Hail Mary is idolatry is, as you say, a failure to understand.

Therefore, logically you said I called you an idolator because you said I failed to understand.

See?

Your were wrong.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I think a good case can be made that the witnesses of Heb 12 are the dead saints of Heb 11.

May I add to your point?

Of course there’s Lazarus and the rich man. They were conscious. (I hope no one tells me it was just a parable. Parables don’t mention specific people.)

How are we surrounded by a “cloud of witnesses” if they are dead (that is, not alive and not able to witness)? If a case can be made, it would be a very bad case.