Any non catholic: what is your opinion on Mary the Mother of God?

[GreggAlvarez]

I guess it really doesn’t concern me, other than I’m not sure how belief in the IC should effect salvation. Certainly, it makes sense that the Blessed Virgin would be pure, protected by grace, for the purpose of giving birth to the savior.

Well, to be honest, I have no clue how it affects our salvation. That fact does not disprove anything. But, I will say that to believe in anything untrue to is not believe in the Truth. And to not believe in the Truth means to not believe in Christ. That is how I look at it.

I would be curious as to what you think would be scriptural implicitness of the IC. And don’t be too sure I would argue against it.
Jon

For another thread… I am still unsure how in the world people can believe Jesus is God but Mary not the Mother of God. It is a contradiction to do so. But, the Immaculate Conception is another can of worms, gummy worms because those are the only good kinds of worms.

God bless

Gregg

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Is the RC church the one true church?Well Scripture says otherwise and the teaching of the church say otherwise.

Unjustified, unjustifiable and false claims do nothing for anyone. You cannot even cite the verse that says the “RC church” is not the one true church.

There is no teaching of the Church that is contradictory to Scripture. If you think it is, either you have no clue what the doctrine is or you are using yourself as an authority above of the Bible. I will go with the latter as your posts seem to indicate this predisposition. I could be wrong though. It could be that you have no clue what the doctrine is.

In any case, you are wrong.

 

[JonNC]

=GreggAlvarez;7579310]Well, to be honest, I have no clue how it affects our salvation. That fact does not disprove anything. But, I will say that to believe in anything untrue to is not believe in the Truth. And to not believe in the Truth means to not believe in Christ. That is how I look at it.

I certainly feel that way about Theotokos and Virgin Birth.

For another thread… I am still unsure how in the world people can believe Jesus is God but Mary not the Mother of God. It is a contradiction to do so.

Agreed.

But, the Immaculate Conception is another can of worms, gummy worms because those are the only good kinds of worms.

Perhaps for another thread.

Good chatting with you.
His peace,
Jon

 

[Thesealsareope]

May I suggest that you start your own thread on what and why you believe the CC is in error regarding the resurrection and saints in heaven. And provide your scriptural proof. You are getting limited responses here as this is about Mary.

I have provided Scriptural proof but it is always ignored because it does not sit with the dogma.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I have provided Scriptural proof but it is always ignored because it does not sit with the dogma.

So start another thread I am sure people would love to discuss this with you.

God bless

 

[elvisman]

Hi Elvisman,
You’ve been carrying the water against some interesting viewpoints, and I thank you for it.
One interesting note I found about “Soul Sleep”. Eusebius wrote:

Apparently, the idea has been around a lot longer than protestants.

Jon

**Yes - it IS interesting how different heresies and aberrations are resurrected from time to time over the centuries. Soul-sleep is not widely held by most denominations. I also find it interesting that Thesealsareope is claiming that we are ALL wrong about almost everything, which dismisses almost all of the historic Christian faith. Makes me wonder what his faith tradition is.

Thanks for the quote from Eusebius!

 

[elvisman]

I have provided Scriptural proof but it is always ignored because it does not sit with the dogma.

I haven’t seen one shred of Scriptural proof from you regarding the topic of this thread. If you want to provide some - I’d be happy to engage you in a conversation about it.**

Would you mind telling me what your faith tradition or denomination is?

 

[elvisman]

[sign]
Originally Posted by Dokimas
The “Hail Mary” is a prayer isn’t it? Who is it addressed to? [/sign]

Your response to me:

You thought I failed to understand.

Saying the Hail Mary is idolatry is, as you say, a failure to understand.

Therefore, logically you said I called you an idolator because you said I failed to understand.

See?

Your were wrong.

Doki - you really need to get another hobby. You are going off track.

I said the following:
"Protestants often say that to “pray” to somebody in heaven to ask them to for pray for us is idolatry because prayer is reserved for God alone. This is a complete failure to understand the word."

NOWHERE did I address you personally so get over it and get back to the topic at hand. the original question wasn’t even addressed to you. It was addressed to Thesealsareope.

 

[Thesealsareope]

What rises at the resurrection (rapture)? The persons body.

We were created in God’s image: God is triune; so are we. Our soul and spirit goes to heaven upon death, IMO, as I’ve understood the Bible.

Then you do not understand the Holy Bible.

 

[Thesealsareope]

I haven’t seen one shred** of Scriptural proof from you regarding the topic of this thread. If you want to provide some - I’d be happy to engage you in a conversation about it.

Would you mind telling me what your faith tradition or denomination is?

That is not true.I gave scriptural proof that the dead are in the grave and do not think.Yet the RC church will soon pull Pope johns coffin out for people to pray to.Similarly the pray to Mary.Why?She is dust like everyone else.
And Luke 1:46-55.tell me why do you pray to someone who acknowledges they are a sinner who needs a saviour and ask them to intercede on your behalf?
Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Here Jesus Himself states that the Blessed ones are those that keep the Word of God.
So why single out Mary.Jesus could have told you that she was in heaven and to pray to her.He didnt.Does that not tell you something?

 

[drgrowalot]

What does the Bible say about Mary?

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. [Someone told him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak to you.”] But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” -Matthew 12:46-50

Was Mary a sinner?

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” -Romans 6:23

Jesus was the only one who did not sin and therefore did not have to die. For this, He was the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

"And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” -Luke 1:46-47

If Mary was sinless she would not need a savior.

Is Mary a mediator?

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” -1 Timothy 2:5-6

Our focus needs to be on Jesus and no one else. Give your life to Him and turn from your sins for salvation.

 

[Thesealsareope]

**Yes - it *IS ***interesting how different heresies and aberrations are resurrected from time to time over the centuries. Soul-sleep is not widely held by most denominations. I also find it interesting that Thesealsareope is claiming that we are ALL wrong about almost everything, which dismisses almost all of the historic Christian faith. Makes me wonder what his faith tradition is.

Thanks for the quote from Eusebius!

The reason is that almost all denominations teach nonsense.They claim we have an immortal soul.the Holy Bible does not teach that.they claim when we die we go to Heaven.the Holy Bible does not teach that.
The Holy Bible says that at a point in time when messiah comes back the graves will give up their dead the sea will give up it’s dead and there will be the resurrection.So explain,why would there be a need for this if we have an immortal soul that goes to heaven and we are judged ahead of the resurrection?What then is the point of the resurrection?As to what religion I follow?I follow God.
And why do I think the seals are open?I do not think it.I know it.But the problem is that if I told you how I knew then none of you would believe me.You would mock.You would ridicule.You all await Jesus.The Scriptures tell you clearly He will walk the earth again as a man.He will be born ,grow up,become a man ,start His 3.5 year ministry and die again and then the end will come.But at that you will mock because you do not understand the Scriptures.
I know the seals are open because I am the one who opened them.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The reason is that almost all denominations teach nonsense.They claim we have an immortal soul.the Holy Bible does not teach that.they claim when we die we go to Heaven.the Holy Bible does not teach that.

But the problem is that if I told you how I knew then none of you would believe me.You would mock.You would ridicule.You all await Jesus.The Scriptures tell you clearly He will walk the earth again as a man.He will be born ,grow up,become a man ,start His 3.5 year ministry and die again and then the end will come.But at that you will mock because you do not understand the Scriptures.
I know the seals are open because I am the one who opened them.

On the first paragraph you are completely wrong. And I shall show you the verse’s in Scripture.

Eph 2:6 Christ raised us up to sit with him in Heaven.

John 13:36 you cannot follow me now but you will follow me later.

John 14:2 Father’s house has many places, I go to prepare you a place.

John V3 I will come and receive you that where I am YOU may be also.

John 14:6 No one comes to the Father but through Me!

And Heaven is described in Bible as the eternal resting place of the Souls concecrated to God.

Matt 5:11 as a great reward

Rom 8:18 present suffering not worthy to be compared with future glory

2 Cor 4:17,18 eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison

Eph 2:7 surpassing riches of His grace towards “us” [that us is Christs Church]

Eph 3:20 beyond all we could ask for or even think of

And on and on an on. Point is, could you prove “your” belief with Scripture?

On the second paragraph you simply need to prove this:thumbsup: Back up your claim with proof.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic please

 

[elvisman]

**First of all - thank you for bringing the conversation back to the topic of the thread after the bizarre turn that Thesealsareope took it to.
**That being said - let’s look at some of your charges.

What does the Bible say about Mary?

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. [Someone told him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak to you.”] But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” -Matthew 12:46-50Not really sure where you’re going with this. Please elaborate.

Was Mary a sinner?

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” -Romans 6:23

Jesus was the only one who did not sin and therefore did not have to die. For this, He was the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

"And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” -Luke 1:46-47

If Mary was sinless she would not need a savior.Like ALL of us - Mary waas saved by the blood of Christ. Just as all of the OT Fathers and everybody who was saved before Jesus walked the earth.

One ancient analogy is that ALL of us fall into the mud puddle of sin and those of us who are saved are pulled out of that puddle by Jesus. Mary was kept from falling into that puddle of sin by God.

Is Mary a mediator?

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” -1 Timothy 2:5-6

Our focus needs to be on Jesus and no one else. Give your life to Him and turn from your sins for salvation.Mary is ABSOLUTELY a mediator – we ALL are in a sense.

As for the verses you quoted (1 Tim. 2:5-6), the Catholic Church agrees with this verse. Jesus IS our only mediator before God in that only his sacrifice could atone for our sins and bring peace between us and the Father. However, to say that there are NO other intercessors goes against Scripture. We are ALL called upon to intercede for one another with prayer and supplications – 2 Cor. 1:10-11, Eph. 6:18-20, 1Tim. 2:1-4, James 5:16.

Protestants often say that to “pray” to somebody in heaven to ask them to for pray for us is idolatry because prayer is reserved for God alone. This is a complete failure to understand the word. To pray, in the most rudimentary definition of the word, is to petition – to ask something of someone. We pray to each other daily.

Whereas prayers of adoration, worship, confession are reserved for God alone, asking a saint in Heaven to pray for us is no different than asking a saint on earth to do the same. To deny this is to deny the reality that is the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-31). We are all parts of the Body of Christ and are more radically joined together than the finger is to the hand because we are joined in Christ – and not by mere flesh.

 

[JonNC]

=elvisman;7580968
Mary is ABSOLUTELY a mediator – we ALL are in a sense.

Yes, we ought to be. And even if, as Lutherans believe, the saints including the Blessed Virgin pray for us in a general way, they too are mediators.

As for the verses you quoted (1 Tim. 2:5-6), the Catholic Church agrees with this verse. Jesus IS our only mediator before God in that only his sacrifice could atone for our sins and bring peace between us and the Father. However, to say that there are NO other intercessors goes against Scripture. We are ALL called upon to intercede for one another with prayer and supplications – 2 Cor. 1:10-11, Eph. 6:18-20, 1Tim. 2:1-4, James 5:16.

well said.

Protestants often say that to “pray” to somebody in heaven to ask them to for pray for us is idolatry because prayer is reserved for God alone. This is a complete failure to understand the word. To pray, in the most rudimentary definition of the word, is to petition – to ask something of someone. We pray to each other daily.

Whereas prayers of adoration, worship, confession are reserved for God alone, asking a saint in Heaven to pray for us is no different than asking a saint on earth to do the same. To deny this is to deny the reality that is the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-31). We are all parts of the Body of Christ and are more radically joined together than the finger is to the hand because we are joined in Christ – and not by mere flesh.

This is what I have come to understand of the Catholic belief. The Lutheran reformers state there is no command, promise, or example (except the dream in Macc 2) of invocation of the saints, and therefore the consciense of the believer ought not be held to it. That does not deny that the saints pray for us constantly, even without our intercessory requests, and it is certainly reasonable to ask God to hear their prayers for us. Those of us who do not practice or believe invocation of the saints, ISTM, ought to take caution in any condemnation of it, on 2 grounds: 1) Luke 15:7, 2) it has been the practice of the Church, east and west, since the early Church.

Back on topic, elvisman, I’m still convinced of the unbreakable link between the doctrine of Theotokos and the Incarnation.

Jon

 

[Dokimas]

How are we surrounded by a “cloud of witnesses” if they are dead (that is, not alive and not able to witness)? If a case can be made, it would be a very bad case.

What does the following refer to?

Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

[Peter_John]

How are we surrounded by a “cloud of witnesses” if they are dead (that is, not alive and not able to witness)? If a case can be made, it would be a very bad case.

The point is they are not dead. That is what Communion of Saints is all about.

 

[elvisman]

Yes, we ought to be. And even if, as Lutherans believe, the saints including the Blessed Virgin pray for us in a general way, they too are mediators.

well said.

This is what I have come to understand of the Catholic belief. The Lutheran reformers state there is no command, promise, or example (except the dream in Macc 2) of invocation of the saints, and therefore the consciense of the believer ought not be held to it. That does not deny that the saints pray for us constantly, even without our intercessory requests, and it is certainly reasonable to ask God to hear their prayers for us. Those of us who do not practice or believe invocation of the saints, ISTM, ought to take caution in any condemnation of it, on 2 grounds: 1) Luke 15:7, 2) it has been the practice of the Church, east and west, since the early Church.

Back on topic, elvisman, I’m still convinced of the unbreakable link between the doctrine of Theotokos and the Incarnation.

Jon

**Right on, brother.

 

[pablope]

[SIGN]
Originally Posted by Dokimas

The “Hail Mary” is a prayer isn’t it? Who is it addressed to? [/SIGN]

.

Doki…has this question of yours been answered? Or do you still need it to be answered?