S
StrawberryJam
Guest
That is very interesting indeed.
Thank you for this post. I had no idea the Orthodox had this view on incorruptables…
Good to know…
- Status
Thank you for this post. I had no idea the Orthodox had this view on incorruptables…
Good to know…
A
agiosotheos
Guest
I know that I’ve never heard this.
S
Snerticus
Guest
Just curious - then what would make a body incorrupt for centuries? Wax itself won’t do it, and embalming doesn’t either…
S
Snerticus
Guest
That does not answer my question at all.
S
Snerticus
Guest
Correction, that does answer my question… apologies. 
However, in the case of incorruptibles, do you think the Church does not know about these things and that they don’t look into them? So, if the Church researches and finds that “none of the above” have taken place, what then has preserved the bodies for so long? Because from what I understand, the Church rules these obvious things out when deciding a body is incorrupt.
However, in the case of incorruptibles, do you think the Church does not know about these things and that they don’t look into them? So, if the Church researches and finds that “none of the above” have taken place, what then has preserved the bodies for so long? Because from what I understand, the Church rules these obvious things out when deciding a body is incorrupt.
L
LittleDeb
Guest
I looked it up further. I was mistaken. It was the reverse. If they were found to be incorrupt then it is taken as a miracle towards sainthood, but within the Orthodox they don’t seem to go looking for an incorrupt state. Sorry for my error.
L
LittleDeb
Guest
“Proof” was my word earlier and I meant to use it in quotes. Incorruptible isn’t really “proof” of anything that we can understand. But why would you find something that is very likely miraculous to be superstition?
S
Snerticus
Guest
From what I understand, in the Catholic Church, incorruptible bodies are not proofs of sainthood at all. Besides, I don’t see them as superstition whatsoever, I see incorruptible bodies with no other explanation other than the power of God. Granted, I don’t understand why incorrupt bodies almost always become corrupt after a time, and can only guess that a certain generation needs to be reminded of God’s infinite power at a time that God deems necessary.
Anyway, you don’t have to believe in them, I was just curious as to what you thought preserved them, that’s all.
Anyway, you don’t have to believe in them, I was just curious as to what you thought preserved them, that’s all.
L
LittleDeb
Guest
overcomeproblems.com/orthodox_incorruptibles.htm
At the bottom of this page are some pictures of Orthodox incorruptibles. Most are darkened, though the first is not at all. He looks very good.
The biggest difference seems to be that the Orthodox do not use the wax coverings. I am also not finding the history of the discoveries of the Orthodox. For example there is a big write up on the three exhumations of St. Bernadette and the state of her body each time. I am looking for a write up of some kind about the Orthodox and not finding even one.
One source says it is a “French thing” to use the wax. But St. John Vianney (sp?) and St. Maria Goretti are not French and they are completely encased in wax. Hmmmm.
EDIT: Never mind. St. Vianney is in France.
At the bottom of this page are some pictures of Orthodox incorruptibles. Most are darkened, though the first is not at all. He looks very good.
The biggest difference seems to be that the Orthodox do not use the wax coverings. I am also not finding the history of the discoveries of the Orthodox. For example there is a big write up on the three exhumations of St. Bernadette and the state of her body each time. I am looking for a write up of some kind about the Orthodox and not finding even one.
One source says it is a “French thing” to use the wax. But St. John Vianney (sp?) and St. Maria Goretti are not French and they are completely encased in wax. Hmmmm.
EDIT: Never mind. St. Vianney is in France.
S
Snerticus
Guest
It’s funny how each of us are brought back to the church. When I was ‘agnostic’ and came back, it was actually things like the incorruptibles and other miracles associated with the saints that partly piqued my interest in the Church. However, I think the thing that did it first and foremost - although at the time I ignored it - was a locution I got about a sin I was committing. I suppose if someone has a locution and ignores it only to find out the message was true later on, miracles would be one aspect of their faith they believe in. I haven’t had locutions since then. And I’ve been to and didn’t agree with Charismatic groups since then as well because I feel they tend to go overboard a lot. Point being that I could have gone too far on the ‘miracle’ side but I’m pretty sure God pulled me back into His own comfort zone with me.
I’m skeptical up to a point. Sure, I probably fall for things but then again there are times when I won’t believe something that is probably true as well, so I figure I’m in a healthy balance.
Biblical character? I tried that and it seemed that I could relate to every character from Judas to Peter. I’d like to think I’m Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus while Martha is busy working away. There are both good and bad aspects to that but I think I fit that one the most.
God Bless,
Snert
I’m skeptical up to a point. Sure, I probably fall for things but then again there are times when I won’t believe something that is probably true as well, so I figure I’m in a healthy balance.
Biblical character? I tried that and it seemed that I could relate to every character from Judas to Peter. I’d like to think I’m Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus while Martha is busy working away. There are both good and bad aspects to that but I think I fit that one the most.
God Bless,
Snert
A
anode
Guest
—Do you have any links showing St. Bernadette’s “clearly blackened” face?
—she is the biggest example cited by the incorruptible advocates.
Her current face, which I believe is a mask, does not resemble her in her coffin.
I wrote the following piece on another forum regarding the phenomenon of “incorruptibility”–which for most examples means mummification. Logically, if a body is truly rendered incorruptible by God,* no process* could alter it—not exhumation, or washing, for example. Nothing.
"The appearance of most of the ‘incorruptibles’ is compatible with spontaneous mummification and of their dying in an extremely emaciated state, as Bernadette did. Most of the ‘incorruptibles’ are very old Italian corpses, tho’ a few are from the 19th c., especially St. Catherine Laboure, St. John Vianney, and St. Bernadette. From the illustrations in the book, “The Incorruptibles”, and online, and from descriptions of these corpses, they sound like spontaneous mummification, aided by emaciation and the conditions of burial. An emaciated corpse has little flesh, and very little fat; there are virtually no bowel contents, meaning many fewer bacteria. The descriptions of the corpses and the photos show extremely desiccated corpses similar to bog people, Andes mummies and Egyptian mummies. There are a lot of descriptions of darkened flesh, desiccated noses, etc. The seated body of St. Catherine of Bologna is a case in point. The items described as life-life are nails, hair and hands, which are often well-preserved in mummies. The body fat, if there is any, commonly changes to “adipocere”, a fatty acid compound forming from fat after death, most common in humid climates and under water, which delays decomposition. There are often stories of the body discoloring or changing at subsequent exhumations, and finally found to have decomposed. This suggests that, as the natural circumstances preserving the body changed, the body changed.
The most persuasive case for miraculous incorruptibility is that of St. Bernadette. But her face does not resemble at all her face at the end of her life, which I saw in a biography of her. Bernadette died of tuberculosis, at age 35. She was extremely emaciated before her death. Near the end of her life, her eyes were sunken and she had an aquiline nose. She was in extreme emaciation and exhaustion. I just found a picture of her online in her coffin wearing a wreath of roses,
(See updated link at end).
–which looks exactly like the picture of her taken near the end of her life. Sunken eyes, aquiline nose, no cheeks, sunken chin, small mouth. Undoubtedly her hands were also extremely emaciated. These pictures of her face just before and after her death do not resemble the face or the hands in her coffin today.
At Bernadette’s first exhumation for her beatification, it was noted that her body was covered with sawdust and charcoal, which easily could have delayed deterioration. After her body was washed and re-interred, her coffin was re-opened later for her canonization and her face was observed to be discolored. Then a wax covering was applied. I suspect that that wax covering was thick enough to give her a new set of features. Ditto her hands.
There’s talk about the ‘miraculous’ preservation of one of my favorite people, Pope John XXIII. But he was embalmed and placed in three caskets, enough to delay decomposition, certainly. The pope’s body has to be embalmed, as it is put on display for several days after his death, which in this case, took place in the early fall, in Rome. John very much wanted to avoid the scandals surrounding the corpse of Pius XII, and made sure that the ceremonies after his death proceeded without a hitch. Read Peter Hebblethwaite’s landmark biography of John XXIII.
Bernadette in death:
catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bb_bernadette_body.htm
Preservation of John XXIII:
lewrockwell.com/orig/vennari2.html
…and Wikipedia: keywords: adipocere, incorruptible, embalming. The ‘embalming’ section describes the treatment and resultant condition of the bodies of the recent popes.’
—she is the biggest example cited by the incorruptible advocates.
Her current face, which I believe is a mask, does not resemble her in her coffin.
I wrote the following piece on another forum regarding the phenomenon of “incorruptibility”–which for most examples means mummification. Logically, if a body is truly rendered incorruptible by God,* no process* could alter it—not exhumation, or washing, for example. Nothing.
"The appearance of most of the ‘incorruptibles’ is compatible with spontaneous mummification and of their dying in an extremely emaciated state, as Bernadette did. Most of the ‘incorruptibles’ are very old Italian corpses, tho’ a few are from the 19th c., especially St. Catherine Laboure, St. John Vianney, and St. Bernadette. From the illustrations in the book, “The Incorruptibles”, and online, and from descriptions of these corpses, they sound like spontaneous mummification, aided by emaciation and the conditions of burial. An emaciated corpse has little flesh, and very little fat; there are virtually no bowel contents, meaning many fewer bacteria. The descriptions of the corpses and the photos show extremely desiccated corpses similar to bog people, Andes mummies and Egyptian mummies. There are a lot of descriptions of darkened flesh, desiccated noses, etc. The seated body of St. Catherine of Bologna is a case in point. The items described as life-life are nails, hair and hands, which are often well-preserved in mummies. The body fat, if there is any, commonly changes to “adipocere”, a fatty acid compound forming from fat after death, most common in humid climates and under water, which delays decomposition. There are often stories of the body discoloring or changing at subsequent exhumations, and finally found to have decomposed. This suggests that, as the natural circumstances preserving the body changed, the body changed.
The most persuasive case for miraculous incorruptibility is that of St. Bernadette. But her face does not resemble at all her face at the end of her life, which I saw in a biography of her. Bernadette died of tuberculosis, at age 35. She was extremely emaciated before her death. Near the end of her life, her eyes were sunken and she had an aquiline nose. She was in extreme emaciation and exhaustion. I just found a picture of her online in her coffin wearing a wreath of roses,
(See updated link at end).
–which looks exactly like the picture of her taken near the end of her life. Sunken eyes, aquiline nose, no cheeks, sunken chin, small mouth. Undoubtedly her hands were also extremely emaciated. These pictures of her face just before and after her death do not resemble the face or the hands in her coffin today.
At Bernadette’s first exhumation for her beatification, it was noted that her body was covered with sawdust and charcoal, which easily could have delayed deterioration. After her body was washed and re-interred, her coffin was re-opened later for her canonization and her face was observed to be discolored. Then a wax covering was applied. I suspect that that wax covering was thick enough to give her a new set of features. Ditto her hands.
There’s talk about the ‘miraculous’ preservation of one of my favorite people, Pope John XXIII. But he was embalmed and placed in three caskets, enough to delay decomposition, certainly. The pope’s body has to be embalmed, as it is put on display for several days after his death, which in this case, took place in the early fall, in Rome. John very much wanted to avoid the scandals surrounding the corpse of Pius XII, and made sure that the ceremonies after his death proceeded without a hitch. Read Peter Hebblethwaite’s landmark biography of John XXIII.
Bernadette in death:
catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bb_bernadette_body.htm
Preservation of John XXIII:
lewrockwell.com/orig/vennari2.html
…and Wikipedia: keywords: adipocere, incorruptible, embalming. The ‘embalming’ section describes the treatment and resultant condition of the bodies of the recent popes.’
A
anode
Guest
Jharek, I appreciate your efforts.
Benardette is the ultimate example people put forth for true incorruptibility. All of the other photos are really of mummified bodies. some descriptions of these described how the bodies had changed after exhumation, blackened, parts-digits, nose tips, fallen off. some bodies like the cure d’ars are now encased in wax, like Bernardette.
Arthur C Clarke had a TV show years ago;, “Unexplained Mysteries” in which he described various phenomena, such as incorruptibility and the stigmata–the later hysterical in origin. I watched the episode on incorruptibility with great interest and much later was able to get ahold of the series, but haven’t gone thru every episode to try to find it. But periodically corpses are unearthed for one reason or another which are in an amazing state of preservation which is usually attributed to the unusual conditions in which they were buried, usually an atmosphere or fluid of high acid content.
I think that it is time to lay these middle-age superstitions to rest, by exposition the most egregious of them–St Bernadette-I feel sorry for her corpse, on display in death as she was during her life, with not a shred of privacy–ever.
Benardette is the ultimate example people put forth for true incorruptibility. All of the other photos are really of mummified bodies. some descriptions of these described how the bodies had changed after exhumation, blackened, parts-digits, nose tips, fallen off. some bodies like the cure d’ars are now encased in wax, like Bernardette.
Arthur C Clarke had a TV show years ago;, “Unexplained Mysteries” in which he described various phenomena, such as incorruptibility and the stigmata–the later hysterical in origin. I watched the episode on incorruptibility with great interest and much later was able to get ahold of the series, but haven’t gone thru every episode to try to find it. But periodically corpses are unearthed for one reason or another which are in an amazing state of preservation which is usually attributed to the unusual conditions in which they were buried, usually an atmosphere or fluid of high acid content.
I think that it is time to lay these middle-age superstitions to rest, by exposition the most egregious of them–St Bernadette-I feel sorry for her corpse, on display in death as she was during her life, with not a shred of privacy–ever.
A
anode
Guest
I googled some more, using "St. Bernadette’ in quotes plus blacked face and found the following;
lewrockwell.com/orig/vennari2.html
…and this from a blog ,Option C by a conservative Catholic from the deep south:
optionc.net/2008/09/lourdes-and-st-bernadette/
The detailed doctor’s reports from the exhumations;
pbase.com/shaunwin/the_incorruptible
Another report of the doctor’s report and a biblio at the end:
miraclesceptic.com/incorruptibility.html#_ST_BERNADETTE_OF_LOURDES
+=++++++++++++++++++
…the detailed descriptions of her body at the 3 exhumations, what was done and why. I think that the extensive calcium calt depositions are interesting and may helped in her preservation, ie in not being completely reduced to bone.
lewrockwell.com/orig/vennari2.html
…and this from a blog ,Option C by a conservative Catholic from the deep south:
optionc.net/2008/09/lourdes-and-st-bernadette/
The detailed doctor’s reports from the exhumations;
pbase.com/shaunwin/the_incorruptible
Another report of the doctor’s report and a biblio at the end:
miraclesceptic.com/incorruptibility.html#_ST_BERNADETTE_OF_LOURDES
+=++++++++++++++++++
…the detailed descriptions of her body at the 3 exhumations, what was done and why. I think that the extensive calcium calt depositions are interesting and may helped in her preservation, ie in not being completely reduced to bone.
D
Deirdra
Guest
Since some of us keep referring to St. Bernadette, you do know after she died, miraculously, her body became supple. Many of the nuns that witnessed her death said that she looked as if she was just sleeping. Her body remained supple until three days after, because of the ongoing viewers who wished to see her body before burial- what a long wait.
I do believe this is a miracle. One, because there are some saints who are still very well preserved even in the harshest climates. Two, because it’s just plain great that people are able to go to their resting places and see that a human, who was just like us, is still able to inspire people to become closer to God - even if they turned completely black.
I do believe this is a miracle. One, because there are some saints who are still very well preserved even in the harshest climates. Two, because it’s just plain great that people are able to go to their resting places and see that a human, who was just like us, is still able to inspire people to become closer to God - even if they turned completely black.
- Status