Any Protestant historians fair to the CC?

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Are there any good Protestant historians who are fair to the Catholic Church with regards to the history of the English Bible? I’ve read a few Catholic historians and wanted to research the Protestant side but got tired of reading things like this:
Tyndale had been forced to flee England, because of the wide-spread rumor that his English New Testament project was underway, causing inquisitors and bounty hunters to be constantly on Tyndale’s trail to arrest him and prevent his project. God foiled their plans, and in 1525-1526 the Tyndale New Testament became the first printed edition of the scripture in the English language.
:rolleyes:

Are there any Protestant historians that are at least fair to the Catholic Church and are approachable by a Catholic while presenting the history of English bible or is the above about all I can expect i.e “God foiled the Catholic Church’s plans to destroy the Bible”

Thanks and God bless
 
Are there any good Protestant historians who are fair to the Catholic Church with regards to the history of the English Bible? I’ve read a few Catholic historians and wanted to research the Protestant side but got tired of reading things like this:

:rolleyes:

Are there any Protestant historians that are at least fair to the Catholic Church and are approachable by a Catholic while presenting the history of English bible or is the above about all I can expect i.e “God foiled the Catholic Church’s plans to destroy the Bible”

Thanks and God bless
I don’t know about English Bible specifically. Diarmaid MacCulloch is an agnostic ex-Anglican who has written well about Cranmer and the English Reformation–not quite what you’re asking for on any front. Even A. G. Dickens, who represents old-fashioned English Protestant historiography in many ways, is a lot fairer to Catholicism than the example you gave. However, it does seem that Tyndale specifically attracts triumphalist Protestants. His major modern biographer, David Daniell, is one of the more strident Protestants working in the field in recent decades.

Alister McGrath is far from perfect, but he’s also better than the example you give.

Edwin
 
I don’t know about English Bible specifically. Diarmaid MacCulloch is an agnostic ex-Anglican who has written well about Cranmer and the English Reformation–not quite what you’re asking for on any front. Even A. G. Dickens, who represents old-fashioned English Protestant historiography in many ways, is a lot fairer to Catholicism than the example you gave. However, it does seem that Tyndale specifically attracts triumphalist Protestants. His major modern biographer, David Daniell, is one of the more strident Protestants working in the field in recent decades.

Alister McGrath is far from perfect, but he’s also better than the example you give.

Edwin
Thanks Edwin, I was counting on your recommendations. I have always wanted to pick up Alister McGrath’s *Reformation Thought *. A friend of mine had it in college and I skimmed through it but it is very expensive and I haven’t been able to pick up my own copy.

I guess it could really be expanded to Reformation in general. The few things I’ve read by Protestants seemed more like propaganda than history. To be fair though I don’t think any of the Protestants I’ve read would be considered historians even in Protestant circles… Not credible ones anyway.

God bless
 
I guess it could really be expanded to Reformation in general. The few things I’ve read by Protestants seemed more like propaganda than history. To be fair though I don’t think any of the Protestants I’ve read would be considered historians even in Protestant circles… Not credible ones anyway.

God bless
I was once in my brother-in-law baptist pastor’s study. I saw a 2-volume textbook series entitled “History of the Church.” I was horrified when I read through it. The first part was about geography, but the other parts were about attacking or at the least misrepresenting Catholic beliefs and doctrine. There wasn’t even anything much on ECF. So sad.

Each section would start with “Objective: To be able to understand that…”
 
I can’t answer your question directly, but it occured to me that in The Fathers Know Best Jimmy Akin quotes many times from a Protestant historian named J.N.D. Kelly, who seemed to be honest enough to admit a great many things about the early Church that support its Catholic identity. This isn’t to say he’s definitely perfect, but you might want to find out if he has written anything on this subject.
 
I think that a good Protestant historian fair to the Catholic Church would become Catholic and would no longer qualify as a good Protestant historian!!

mouse:D
 
I think that a good Protestant historian fair to the Catholic Church would become Catholic and would no longer qualify as a good Protestant historian!!

mouse:D
Perhaps but maybe I am just setting too high of a standard for Protestant historians? When I was researching it from a Catholic viewpoint I didn’t really care if the author was fair to Protestantism because I told myself I would get around to reading the Protestant side eventually (like I try to do in most cases). I will give some of the suggestions I’ve received so far a fair read and hopefully their themes won’t be, “God and the Reformers against the evil Catholic Church” I understand their audience, just like Catholic historians have their audience, but some of the vilification of the Catholic Church makes some of their work almost unapproachable for a Catholic. I’m sure it seems that way for a Protestant looking at Catholic historians. Or maybe not 🤷

God bless
 
William Cobbett fits the bill pretty well.
His “A History of The Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland” isn`t exactly pro-Protestant.

Eg:
marianland.com/hist010.html

also:
exclassics.com/protref/protint.htm

Note that the book can be downloaded.

Samuel Johnson (“The Quotable Johnson”) wasn`t an historian, of course; but he had a bit of a Catholic leaning.
 
YES! There is a Protestant historian who is fair to the CC!

Read Church History in Plain Language by Bruce L. Shelley, Thomas Nelson Publishers.

amazon.com/Church-History-Plain-Language-3rd/dp/0718025539

This book is one reason why I converted to Catholicism! Yes, a book written by a Protestant, a church history book!

This book made it clear that the Early Church was the Catholic Church.

When it comes to the compilation of the Biblical canon, this book describes in plain language (as the title says!) how we got the Bible, and how the deuterocanonical books were removed from the Protestant Bible. The explanation is fair to the Catholic Church; if anything, it is just a little critical of the Protestant movement.

I LOVE this book! I’ve read it three times. I heartily recommend it to CATHOLICS who are trying to find an easy-to-understand history of the Church. Triumph by H.W. Crocker is often mentioned as a “popular” book of Church history, but I found it confusing in places because of my lack of background of world history. Crocker goes rather fast through all the various European monarchs, kingdoms, wars, alliance,etc., and much of the time I am still trying to figure out which “King Charles” or “King Louis” he’s talking about!

Also, Crocker is a bit bombastic, and at time, seems to making inside political jokes and laughing at them. This makes me feel left out. I don’t really get the jokes, and so I also feel kind of ignorant.

But Shelley truly writes in “plain language,” and when he does interject personal opinion, it is usually to express reverence and awe over the wondrous working of God in human history.

Yes, he writes about the Reformation in a positive way, describing how the Catholic Church dealt rather poorly with some of the issues, and made some kind of revolt inevitable. But it’s definitely not a condemnation of the Catholic Church, as so many Protestant histories do. It’s just kind of sad.

And for those who are interested in the origin of the various Protestant sects (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Baptists, Pentecostals, evangelicals, etc.), this book is definitely superior to Triumph. It will help you to understand the vastness of Protestantism.

One other thing that Shelley does well is describe the various heresies that came up in the Early Church, and have continued to pop up. This is very interesting and useful to know.

Try it, you’ll like it.
 
I think that a good Protestant historian fair to the Catholic Church would become Catholic and would no longer qualify as a good Protestant historian!!

mouse:D
That’s just nonsense. The evidence is far from compelling for any particular religious position, unless your presuppositions already lead you that way. Catholics need to stop making this positivistic argument.

Edwin
 
Thanks Edwin, I was counting on your recommendations. I have always wanted to pick up Alister McGrath’s *Reformation Thought *. A friend of mine had it in college and I skimmed through it but it is very expensive and I haven’t been able to pick up my own copy.

I guess it could really be expanded to Reformation in general. The few things I’ve read by Protestants seemed more like propaganda than history. To be fair though I don’t think any of the Protestants I’ve read would be considered historians even in Protestant circles… Not credible ones anyway.

God bless
Well, on the Reformation in general I can give lots of recommendations.

Some general surveys of the Reformation by Protestant historians are:

Euan Cameron, The European Reformation. I’m indebted to that book for the insight that when Catholics and Protestants respectively approached death, their attitudes to faith/works flipped: Catholics were taught to throw themselves on Christ’s mercy, while Protestants tended to look at their righteous lives as evidence that they were among the elect. I don’t think this is true of Luther, but I think Cameron’s right that it became a fairly common approach among Protestants. This observation did a lot to eradicate my lingering fear that Catholics really believed in “works righteousness.” Maybe Cameron’s wrong, but this is the kind of interesting, even-handed observation you get from a serious historian. (Cameron has also done good work on the Waldenses, which is worth consulting if you run into the folks who think the Waldenses were basically Baptists.) Cameron is, I think, Anglican, but I’m not quite sure. I’m pretty sure he’s Protestant though.

Carter Lindberg, *The European Reformations. *I hear a lot about this one as maybe the standard survey at this point, though I’m afraid I’ve never actually read it. I’ve read some more specialized writing by Lindberg and can recommend him as an excellent historian–I believe he’s Lutheran. Note the plural in the title: this is fashionable these days and should be welcome to Catholics inasmuch as it recognizes the Catholic Reformation as one among many attempts to reform the Church rather than simply as a knee-jerk reaction to the “real Reformation,” which is how older Protestant scholarship often portrayed it.

A short recent book which I’m using for my upcoming class on the period is R. Ward Holder, Crisis and Renewal: The Era of the Reformations. Ward teaches at a Catholic college–I think he’s a Presbyterian or something of that sort himself.

My own advisor, David Steinmetz, is in my opinion a model of fair-minded scholarship. When my wife took his Luther seminar (this was before she knew me), she first thought he was Catholic (when he was discussing Luther’s Catholic background), then Lutheran (when he was discussing Luther’s own ideas), and finally discovered to her amazement that he was a Methodist like herself, which she would never have figured out from the way he approached the material. Steinmetz is not inclined to become Catholic–in fact, he’s been one of the influences holding me back from doing so, and is also one of the reasons that I tend to see glib Catholic citation of Newman’s dictum about being deep in history as something like a personal insult. (Steinmetz’s own dictum on the subject, which I think is more accurate than Newman’s, is: “it’s hard for historians to convert to anything, because we know where the bodies are buried.”) Steinmetz has written the following books:
Reformers in the Wings (a sketch of 20 important but lesser-known figures from the Reformation era, including five Catholics);
Luther in Context and Calvin in Context (collections of essays, mostly on the exegesis of these two figures)
Luther and Staupitz (this was one of his earliest books and a follow-up to his dissertation on Staupitz–it does a great job of distinguishing Staupitz’s late medieval Augustinianism from Luther’s own theology and showing just how Luther did in fact break with the medieval theological tradition).
Memory and Mission: also a collection of essays–these are on general theological subjects and may be of less interest.
I see from his Duke page that he seems to be back on the project of writing a general survey of Calvin’s thought, which I thought he’d given up. I hope he does finish this–he’s an excellent synthesizer but much of his published work so far has consisted of fairly specialized essays. He was at one point going to write an “intellectual history of the Reformation” called Divided by a Common Past. I hope he does that some day, but he’s in his 70s now and the chances probably aren’t good that he’ll ever finish it.

Steinmetz’s own advisor, Heiko Oberman, has a stronger Protestant bias–he’s the source for the “Tradition I, II, III” paradigm which Keith Mathison has picked up and popularized. But he’s well worth reading, and at worst he’s a lot more sophisticated in his advocacy of Protestantism than many of the folks you seem to have been reading. His biography of Luther: Man between God and the Devil, is the most interesting one out there for my money. (Bainton’s Here I Stand is a better place to start, but has a more conventional Protestant bias. Oberman is always creative even in his biases.) Another scholar with whom I disagree (specifically for his Protestant biases) but respect immensely is Peter Matheson. He wrote one of the few books out there on my alias Cardinal Contarini, though I don’t think he gets Contarini quite right precisely because he (Matheson) is reading him through Protestant lenses.

Diarmaid MacCulloch, whom I mentioned above, is always worth reading. An excellent writer–not presently practicing any religion, I believe, but Anglican by heritage and bias. He has written a general book on the Reformation and a still more general survey of church history.

Edwin
 
Speaking of which, the following are some of the standard surveys of church history out there:
Justo Gonzalez, *The Story of Christianity. *I don’t like this much, in part because of its Protestant bias, though again we’re talking a far more sophisticated bias than you may have encountered in the past. He’s revised it and the revision may be better. I use the second volume of this when I teach second-semester church history at the seminary level, because a better alternative hasn’t come out yet.

Kenneth Scott Latourette. I don’t know his work really well–he’s best known as a historian of missions. A Catholic professor at Duke Divinity School used his survey, though, so I suspect it’s not too biased. The problem is that it’s too detailed for an intro course in my opinion.

Irvin and Sunquist, *History of the World Christian Movement. *Only vol. 1 is out so far, so I use this for first semester and Gonzalez (reluctantly) for second. (I teach church history online for a seminary every other summer or so, though I have mostly been teaching first-semester recently–my wife teaches second more often.) Both authors are Protestants–one mainline and one free-church evangelical. It’s pretty fair on the whole, though the bias is strongly in favor of emphasizing the “diversity” of Christianity in a way that may undermine Catholicism to some extent.

Nystrom & Nystrom, The History of Christianity: An Introduction. These are also Protestant authors, and there’s a bit of a bias at work–for instance, they discuss the mendicant orders as part of their discussion of the late Middle Ages, putting them in the context of a corruption-and-reform narrative and obscuring their role as part of a flourishing of spiritual creativity during the High Middle Ages. But again, that’s a more sophisticated form of bias than you’re talking about. This is the textbook I used last spring for my one-semester undergrad survey course.

Many of these books are expensive–but you can use ILL, you know!
 
Thank you for taking the time Edwin. I appreciate it.

God bless
 
Jaroslav Pelikan - probably the most highly regarded church historian of the 20th century.

He became Eastern Orthodox shortly before his death, but 90%+ of his writings were done as a Lutheran, and I think he was fair to all.
 
A reverse question could be asked, are there any Roman Catholics Historians fair to Lutherans and the Reformation?:o
 
A reverse question could be asked, are there any Roman Catholics Historians fair to Lutherans and the Reformation?:o
This wasn’t meant as a gotcha topic against Protestant historians. I genuinely wanted to know and read Protestant works on the matter but was tired of the works I had been reading. I just wanted to make that clear.

God bless
 
A reverse question could be asked, are there any Roman Catholics Historians fair to Lutherans and the Reformation?:o
Some. Probably fewer because Catholics are relatively less likely to write on the Reformation in the first place. Protestants who write about the Reformation have to talk about Catholicism in one way or another. Catholics who study church history are relatively more likely to write about early or medieval or something like that.

Joseph Lortz’ interpretation of Luther is a bit patronizing, but he was trying very hard to be fair and appreciative. Otto Hermann Pesch wrote a very well-respected comparison of Luther’s and Aquinas’s respective doctrines of justification, from a Catholic perspective. Louis Bouyer is pretty fair in my opinion (though he certainly has a Catholic agenda) in his *The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism. *George Tavard is criticized by some Protestants for being too much of a Catholic apologist in his book on Calvin; but like Lortz and Bouyer, he seems to have been trying hard to be fair and sympathetic to his subject. Tavard also (in my opinion) wrote an excellent if critical book on Anglicanism, as did Aidan Nichols. Alexander Ganoczy’s The Young Calvin is one of the best studies of Calvin’s early years, and Kilian McDonnell’s book on Calvin’s ecclesiology and sacramental theology is a model of ecumenical scholarship. Finally, Brad Gregory’s book Salvation at Stake is so fair to all sides in its examination of martyrdom and persecution in the 16tth century that I couldn’t tell that Gregory was Catholic, although I could tell that he was a committed, fairly conservative Christian of some sort.

Oh, and Carlos Eire’s book on iconoclasm is also excellent.

Edwin
 
Some. Probably fewer because Catholics are relatively less likely to write on the Reformation in the first place. Protestants who write about the Reformation have to talk about Catholicism in one way or another. Catholics who study church history are relatively more likely to write about early or medieval or something like that.

Joseph Lortz’ interpretation of Luther is a bit patronizing, but he was trying very hard to be fair and appreciative. Otto Hermann Pesch wrote a very well-respected comparison of Luther’s and Aquinas’s respective doctrines of justification, from a Catholic perspective. Louis Bouyer is pretty fair in my opinion (though he certainly has a Catholic agenda) in his *The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism. *George Tavard is criticized by some Protestants for being too much of a Catholic apologist in his book on Calvin; but like Lortz and Bouyer, he seems to have been trying hard to be fair and sympathetic to his subject. Tavard also (in my opinion) wrote an excellent if critical book on Anglicanism, as did Aidan Nichols. Alexander Ganoczy’s The Young Calvin is one of the best studies of Calvin’s early years, and Kilian McDonnell’s book on Calvin’s ecclesiology and sacramental theology is a model of ecumenical scholarship. Finally, Brad Gregory’s book Salvation at Stake is so fair to all sides in its examination of martyrdom and persecution in the 16tth century that I couldn’t tell that Gregory was Catholic, although I could tell that he was a committed, fairly conservative Christian of some sort.

Oh, and Carlos Eire’s book on iconoclasm is also excellent.

Edwin
Tavard I knew as a moderately liberal and ecumenically minded RC. I have his book on Anglican Orders. Did he write one on Anglicanism, per se?

GKC

Added: Found it. THE QUEST FOR CATHOLICITY.
 
Tavard I knew as a moderately liberal and ecumenically minded RC. I have his book on Anglican Orders. Did he write one on Anglicanism, per se?

GKC

Added: Found it. THE QUEST FOR CATHOLICITY.
Yep. That’s it. I’d like to hear your reaction to it. It seemed reasonable to me, but as you know I’m a lot more skeptical about Anglo-Catholicism than you are–I basically share his evaluation that the “quest for Catholicity” has been noble but doomed.

Admittedly I may be mixing up Tavard in my memory with Nichols’ *The Panther and the Hind, *the other history of Anglicanism by an RC, and also a good book IMHO.

Edwin
 
Yep. That’s it. I’d like to hear your reaction to it. It seemed reasonable to me, but as you know I’m a lot more skeptical about Anglo-Catholicism than you are–I basically share his evaluation that the “quest for Catholicity” has been noble but doomed.

Admittedly I may be mixing up Tavard in my memory with Nichols’ *The Panther and the Hind, *the other history of Anglicanism by an RC, and also a good book IMHO.

Edwin
PANTHER AND HIND is a good book. But I think you probably are thinking of QUEST FOR CATHOLICITY. I haven’t seen it but I just finished reading an extensive review of it, and it sounds a lot like your comments on the subject. I suspect you cited the correct title.

It (as far as one can tell from the review) is not something I haven’t read before; treating “intention” as crucial, and assuming sacramental intent is determinable broadly by determinatio ex adiunctis. What strikes me as odd is the contradiction that seems to exist between this book and his REVIEW OF ANGLICAN ORDERS, from about 25 years later, in which he is far less dogmatic on the definitive nature of* Apostolciae Curae*. One would need to read the two together, and I would like to.

GKC
 
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