Any public school teachers/parents

[duskyjewel]

Short answer… the parents have to actually care on their own. They cannot be forced to do so by the school, or by anyone else.

My children attend publicly funded charter schools. And they will continue to do so until they graduate. This is because I have examined the curricula used at the schools, the policies and regulations in place, and have decided that these are the environments I want for my children. By the time they graduate, all of my children will not only be better educated that I was at the end of college, at least in the basics and classics, but they will have gotten a vastly better education than is available at the local Catholic schools and even some of the private schools.

I have been extremely careful about where to place my children, I keep track daily of what is going on, and I question the school when something happens that I don’t like. In other words, I take responsibility for my children’s education, even though it takes place outside my home for the most part.

If the parents you know are not doing that… then nothing will be able to force them. I don’t understand people who do not care about and are not invested in their children’s futures… and if they are ignorant of the things going on at their schools, or allow their children to be shortchanged by such things, then I’m sorry, but they just don’t care enough to get involved. Nothing any of us can do will repair that. All we can do is pray for the kids.

 

[john_ennis]

Have you considered running for your school board? Even if your campaign fails, your school’s administrators are more likely to listen to you if they see you’re serious.

Are you a mathematician, or do you work with mathematicians? Believe it or not, the best mathematicians that I know are unable to do simple sums and products in their heads. Remember, mathematicians rarely need to do arithmetic when researching or teaching higher math. Arithmetic is not the same as mathematics…it’s just one narrow application of mathematics.

Just a simple teacher of high school English and math. I have six kids and don’t live in the district, but I make my concerns known, and try to get as many educators pressuring for change as I can.

I’m not talking about doing calculations in one’s head. I’m talking about basic calculating ability. What I mean is, I’d wager that no mathematician is unable to add/multiply fractions or decimals on paper. Nor that he/she is unable to do long division.

When one cannot do those things, one has little feel for numbers (what some call “number sense”).

The mathematicians and researchers you speak of have a great understanding and instinct for numbers, wouldn’t you say? Show me someone who can’t do the calculations I speak of adeptly, and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t have an instinct for numbers. That’s what I see with the incoming freshman; that’s what I’m worried about.

Peace.
John

 

[john_ennis]

duskyjewel:

Agreed that we can’t force parents to be motivated/interested, but there’s a sort of “what can we do?” attitude that could be influenced, if more of them knew how much pressure they can exert.

I doubt, for instance, that many realize that it would be perfectly okay for them to insist on having parent observers in classrooms on a regular basis, or just how profoundly that measure would affect the school.

 

[PaulinVA]

I would like to thank the home schoolers and Catholic schoolers for holding their tongues on this. No need to muddy the waters with the whole debate about education choices.

John, probably every school system has policies that some people don’t agree with. It’s frustrating for you since you live it every day.

You didn’t mention what kind of district it is - urban, suburban, rural. Might that have a bearing on this?

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I am only a student teacher, but I see a lot.

Someone mentioned grammar. I have to teach spelling, grammar, literary devices, literary elements, reading skills, studying skills, discussion skills and basic behavior in every class I teach. And yes, it is a literature based curriculum, but I have to throw everything else in.

As for homework- I give 3 day of homework out of the 5. I don’t believe in homework, but I give it because the parents get mad if I don’t. And what I do assign is what they should be doing on their own anyway- reviewing and preparing for the next day.

I recommend that everyone pick up Kohn’s Homework Myth

 

[Maritsa]

As for homework- I give 3 day of homework out of the 5. I don’t believe in homework, but I give it because the parents get mad if I don’t. And what I do assign is what they should be doing on their own anyway- reviewing and preparing for the next day.

I recommend that everyone pick up Kohn’s Homework Myth

That is a good point. With most students spending 8 hours in school, plus another hour commuting back and forth, plus another 1-10 hours a week on average in extra-curricular activities, plus getting up hours before their biological clocks wake up after too few hours of sleep, I don’t see how high school students need homework, much less accomplish even 30 plus minutes of homework for every one of the 4-7 classes they take every day.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

That is a good point. With most students spending 8 hours in school, plus another hour commuting back and forth, plus another 1-10 hours a week on average in extra-curricular activities, plus getting up hours before their biological clocks wake up after too few hours of sleep, I don’t see how high school students need homework, much less accomplish even 30 plus minutes of homework for every one of the 4-7 classes they take every day.

Thank you. It’s nice to be validated.

Although, I just realized that they have been having to read a chapter a night on the book we are reading. But, meh, it’s not too hard.

 

[HannahLisa]

That is a good point. With most students spending 8 hours in school, plus another hour commuting back and forth, plus another 1-10 hours a week on average in extra-curricular activities, plus getting up hours before their biological clocks wake up after too few hours of sleep, I don’t see how high school students need homework, much less accomplish even 30 plus minutes of homework for every one of the 4-7 classes they take every day.

I have a sister currently in this boat. She gets very little sleep because she is taking AP classes, which assign a lot of homework. She’s also involved in various other activities. She keeps doing it, though, because she loves it. The AP classes are challenging, but she does them because she wants to. Her workload is worse than mine, and I am a more than full time student at a university known for the high quality of its academics! Universities assign homework, of course, and perhaps in large amounts, but they leave more room to do it than high school does.

 

[1ke]

My two comments:

School district policies are created locally, and therefore YMMV (your mileage may vary). One cannot generalize when it comes to such policies. The school I attended growing up and the school I taught in did not allow ANY of the items listed by the OP. The school I attended way back in the dark ages (my 25th high school reunion is next year) is still as strict today as it was then-- as evidenced by the student code of conduct and district policies readily available on their website. In fact, my DH is on the school board where we live now and he’s amazed at the policies of my old district-- he’s used them as a model in several instances.

My second comment is regarding calculators in mathematics (and as a certified math teacher, I feel qualified) let me point out that Archimedes, Euclid, Fermat, Leibniz, Descartes, Cauchy, Euler, L’Hopital, Bernoulli and all those others for whom branches of mathematics and/or theorems and laws are named… managed to *invent *advanced mathematics without the aid of a calculator.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

Someone mentioned grammar. I have to teach spelling, grammar, literary devices, literary elements, reading skills, studying skills, discussion skills and basic behavior in every class I teach.

I graduated from public highschool in the 1980’s. I never had a grammar class. We had language arts, not every day, and not every year. That class was basically to know what is a noun, verb or adjective. Once in awhile spelling was thrown in. Language arts was over after middle school. In high school, in the honors english classes I had, very rarely did we have grammar, again once in awhile a sheet on sentence fragments or spelling. I basically made it through that part of my 13 years of public school education by watching school house rock.

 

[Phemie]

When it comes to parents caring or not caring, let me tell you what I saw about 10 years ago when we moved to this town – btw, we were posted here with the military and there was no other school.

My son came home about two weeks into the first semester and said, “There are 6 students in my class who would have already been expelled at our old school.” He then proceded to tell me that at least 3 of the kids had told the teacher to go f himself and one had picked up his desk and thrown it at the teacher.

Thinking he was exaggerating I brought it up when we had the open house at the school. The teacher confirmed it and said that no matter what occurred, sending those particular students to the principal’s office always resulted in the parents showing up and having fit: How dare the teacher?? Their little darlings are good kids who would never do these things, the teacher is picking on them, etc. etc. Said the teacher, “We can’t expel them as there is nowhere else for them to go.”

I’ve only known one kid to be expelled in all that time and he had uttered death threats.

 

[THutch04]

Not a parent, but I have been very involved and interested in the educational system for many years now. My particular school district didn’t allow food or headphones that the OP mentioned. They did have us using calculators, but that wasn’t until high school that they started being used all the time. Before algebra, math was expected to be done without a calculator. Personally I can’t do anything past basic math with or without a calculator (don’t ask me to figure out fractions unless they’re converted into decimals first, because I really can’t do it), but a calculator made math less impossible for me. My mind just does NOT work that way at all!!! I know my district has been focusing a lot more on computer use though in the past few years, and I think they’re starting it even before middle school.

I think parents need to take a much more involved role in the running of the district. The school board approves the policies and decides where money goes. At least in my district, it’s the same couple of people every month who go to the meetings, and hardly anybody takes an interest in the district until something bad happens. I doubt it’s very different in other districts.

 

[ack]

I’m not talking about doing calculations in one’s head. I’m talking about basic calculating ability. What I mean is, I’d wager that no mathematician is unable to add/multiply fractions or decimals on paper. Nor that he/she is unable to do long division.

When one cannot do those things, one has little feel for numbers (what some call “number sense”).

The mathematicians and researchers you speak of have a great understanding and instinct for numbers, wouldn’t you say? Show me someone who can’t do the calculations I speak of adeptly, and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t have an instinct for numbers. That’s what I see with the incoming freshman; that’s what I’m worried about.

You are correct here. My point was that many smart mathematicians don’t know basic addition or multiplication tables. (In one memorable moment, one of my math professors was stumped by 6x7.)

Similarly, calculator use can facilitate learning advanced math and science concepts – but only if you already know how to do multiplication and long division. Calculators are especially useful for learning quantitative chemistry.

 

[john_ennis]

You are correct here. My point was that many smart mathematicians don’t know basic addition or multiplication tables. (In one memorable moment, one of my math professors was stumped by 6x7.)

Similarly, calculator use can facilitate learning advanced math and science concepts – but only if you already know how to do multiplication and long division. Calculators are especially useful for learning quantitative chemistry.

Yes.
Calculators are a tool for calculating, but as you say, won’t make up for a deficiency in understanding (this understanding or instinct comes about by a practicing and refinement of basic calculating ability).

No one thinks that, because we have word processing on computers to make writing and editing more efficient, and spellcheck and grammarcheck, that someone with poor reading/writing/and grammar skill can now be a proficient writer. They would continue to be a poor communicator.

John

 

[john_ennis]

I am only a student teacher, but I see a lot.

Someone mentioned grammar. I have to teach spelling, grammar, literary devices, literary elements, reading skills, studying skills, discussion skills and basic behavior in every class I teach. And yes, it is a literature based curriculum, but I have to throw everything else in.

As for homework- I give 3 day of homework out of the 5. I don’t believe in homework, but I give it because the parents get mad if I don’t. And what I do assign is what they should be doing on their own anyway- reviewing and preparing for the next day.

I recommend that everyone pick up Kohn’s Homework Myth

Kohn has extremely strong philosophical leanings that contradict what I have found to work in raising my own kids and teaching kids.

I beg you to read some E.D. Hirsch (whose success even his critics don’t deny), and contrast it with Kohn’s ideas.

Kids need practice and accountability. They’re more able than many think; they’re also–like us adults–apt to do no more than required, and learn less when instruction becomes “student centered.”

Homework–making students think again about the topic hours after having thought about it before–refines the learning, and makes it more permanent.
The fact that our lifestyle makes homework much more inconvenient if not impossible these days, or that teachers may give too much homework, does not contradict the fact that homework helps learning (especially for disadvantaged kids who have fewer day-to-day learning experiences at home).

Peace…
John

 

[john_ennis]

The teacher confirmed it and said that no matter what occurred, sending those particular students to the principal’s office always resulted in the parents showing up and having fit: How dare the teacher?? Their little darlings are good kids who would never do these things, the teacher is picking on them, etc. etc. Said the teacher, “We can’t expel them as there is nowhere else for them to go.”

I’ve only known one kid to be expelled in all that time and he had uttered death threats.

The irony is that, a school which is willing and ready to suspend/expel kids, has to do it less often. Just as a parent who punishes consistently and decisively finds that he has to do it less often.

The administration, as well as teacher, should be indignant toward parents who can’t take responsibility, always keeping in their mind the dozens of parents who should be complaining How dare you allow this student to wreck our class?

You’re very right to be ticked.

Peace.
John

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Kohn has extremely strong philosophical leanings that contradict what I have found to work in raising my own kids and teaching kids.

I beg you to read some E.D. Hirsch (whose success even his critics don’t deny), and contrast it with Kohn’s ideas.

Kids need practice and accountability. They’re more able than many think; they’re also–like us adults–apt to do no more than required, and learn less when instruction becomes “student centered.”

Homework–making students think again about the topic hours after having thought about it before–refines the learning, and makes it more permanent.
The fact that our lifestyle makes homework much more inconvenient if not impossible these days, or that teachers may give too much homework, does not contradict the fact that homework helps learning (especially for disadvantaged kids who have fewer day-to-day learning experiences at home).

Peace…
John

 

[JimmyJeff]

That has not been my experience, especially in the higher grades.

Being a public school parent, it really pains me to say this but I agree with you. I live in a weathly, top rated school district and I would say about 1/4 of the parents are actively involved.

Since my son started middle school this year, I’ve been appalled at what passes as parenting. Many of these children (11,12) seem to be allowed to do whatever they want. My son tells me that some of the boys refuse to do homework and think it’s cool to take lunch detention in lieu of doing work and brag that they are getting C’s and D’s. Meanwhile spending their weekends at “couples” parties. That is probably not the norm but that’s all I hear about.

I guarantee that I am less conservative than anyone on this board (I"m not even Catholic) and was a teenage wildchild. However, I’m pretty tough with my kids. My 12 year old is doesn’t watch MTV (most of the kids do), he doesn’t have a computer or TV in his room, he’s expected to get good grades, doesn’t “date” (that whole thing just drives me bonkers).

The thing is though, we play sports at the local parish and my kids have many friends who attend school there. From what I’ve been told, it’s not much better.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Kohn has extremely strong philosophical leanings that contradict what I have found to work in raising my own kids and teaching kids.

I beg you to read some E.D. Hirsch (whose success even his critics don’t deny), and contrast it with Kohn’s ideas.

Kids need practice and accountability. They’re more able than many think; they’re also–like us adults–apt to do no more than required, and learn less when instruction becomes “student centered.”

Homework–making students think again about the topic hours after having thought about it before–refines the learning, and makes it more permanent.
The fact that our lifestyle makes homework much more inconvenient if not impossible these days, or that teachers may give too much homework, does not contradict the fact that homework helps learning (especially for disadvantaged kids who have fewer day-to-day learning experiences at home).

Peace…
John

I will just say that I disagree with you. I have my own teaching philosophy that I believe in and practice. That may change with experience, but right now- I enjoy it and it works with my students. I actually have higher grades on quizzes and tests now that I don’t “require” them to do certain things. They have begun to self-regulate their learning, and isn’t that everyone’s goal?

 

[john_ennis]

They have begun to self-regulate their learning, and isn’t that everyone’s goal?

Just as surely as a parent’s goal is for children to become*self-*discliplined, and in striving for that goal, they impose discipline from the outside.

You’re right about the Kohn/Hirsch contrast being philosophical and even ideological; we could go on disputing each other for days and days, because our perspective is so different.

I’ve found it’s similar to, and it even correlates with, a difference of opinion about whether people are born with no tendencies toward selfishness and laziness, and can thus be counted on to take effective advantage of learning opportunities automatically, or they’re born with a self-centeredness which must be overcome, and thus they must develop an attitude of responsibility.

Peace.
John