C
Ceil-1
Guest
I do believe they are pacifist, no? Does one have to be a consciencious objector to join?
- Status
P
Publisher
Guest
At one time in our history members were “read out of Meeting” if they served in the armed forces as it went against the Peace Testimony.
Being people of conscience and affirming that God will lead the believer in the way they should walk…it was difficult to embrace the belief that war was acceptible…however…each Friend must decide for themselves how to best live the Life…some Friends have left the Society to pursue military service…denying the Peace Testimony…these Friends sought a “Clearness Committee” to assist them in making their decision through meditation and prayer…AND the counsel of “weighty Friends” to make their decisions.
IF those Friends leave…they are welcomed back after counseling and love…ideals are difficult to maintain…and each of us must “Stand in the Light” as we see fit.
C
Ceil-1
Guest
As a Quaker, do you believe in just war, or self-defense? If not, do you believe in docility to the Will of God in this regard? Or is there another reason?
P
Publisher
Guest
Friends do not believe there is anything as a “just war”…it goes against the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. We are to live in the Kingdom NOW…we are to pray for our enemies…do good to those that despitefully use us. The author of Hebrews wrote "As far as it be Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Friends along with Mennonites and Brethren embrace a peace stance. We struggle with it…living in peace…living within the “Shalom of God” has certain responsibilites. How can one “love his neighbor” yet shoot him…and perhaps even kill another Christian simply because of political and diplomatic failings.
Friends embrace “passive non-resistance”…the time for diplomacy IS NOT WHEN the first bomb is dropped…but years before.
War is a terrible thing in our world…it strips us of dignity as we contemplate doing the things we do in war to our “enemies”.
Each Friend must decide for themselves as “people of conscience” how best to live in accord with the Peace Testimony. We work to promote peaceful resolution to conflict when ever we can.
War is outside the will of God for those who live in the Kingdom of God.
Every branch of Friends embraces the Peace Testimony…we allow our members to make a decision if they embrace it fully as individuals…but it is taught…quoted…and embraced by all Friends in one form or another…we no longer “read Friends out of Meeting” for joining the armed forces…we seek to bear the awful burden they bear in being placed in a situation to kill another person in an act of war and violence…it would be easy to “excommunicate” such members…but it is not our way…we will bear the burden and responsibility of the “errant” Friend.
Peace Testimony…“All bloody principles and practices we do utterly deny, with all outward wars, and strife, and fightings with outward weapons, for any end, or under any pretence whatsoever, and this is our testimony to the whole world. That spirit of Christ by which we are guided is not changeable, so as once to command us from a thing as evil and again to move unto it; and we do certainly know, and so testify to the world, that the spirit of Christ, which leads us into all Truth, will never move us to fight any war against any man with outward weapons, neither for the kingdom of Christ, nor for the kingdoms of this world.”
A
Abba
Guest
Hello Publisher,
An interesting thread, I am learning here about the belief of the Friends.
Now, if I follow the logic to it’s end, that is this train of thought and perception or understanding, and if it were correct; why would God even bother creating a physical world? But, God, we read in Genesis, saw that it was GOOD. I agree,
I have to hand it to him. It is a beautiful world. Last week I had to get a false tooth for one that was removed and I was not enthused with my new tooth. The dentist thought that I was difficult to please. But, I drove away thinking, hey, it is not like the one God gave me. Give me the one God gave me back and I will put a smile on my face. Something so simple, it would seem, as a tooth. It really made me appreciate God’s creation. God did it just right. His creation is beautiful! I like the sun, the sea, the animals, the birds, the trees, etc., etc.Then, there is la creme de la creme of his creation.
Human beings. We read in Genesis that he created us in his image. Each and every single human being no matter what their physical appearance, condition, health, language, nationality, race, color of skin, age and yes, even the sinner, is dearly loved by God. I think that he did a great job! I like my toes, nose, fingers and how the human body works and I want my tooth back. 
God’s creation is GOOD and this human body has its function, we have the senses to perceive, we think, etc… and we conduct ‘outward forms’ due to the human function in it’s complexity and totality - which can be established by scripture - is GOOD. To say that, we need to do ‘outward’ things to do certain things, achieve certain goals and communicate certain things. Human beings are social and this is all GOOD.
Do Quakers consider the Bible to be Sacred Scripture? If so, what books do they consider to compose the Bible?
If ‘outward forms’ were bad and the spiritual realm is what counts exclusively, then why would God allow the Crucifixion? Why have Moses build an altar with a snake? Why have Moses throw a stick on the ground to become a snake and eat the other snake, why all the show? Why have the Jewish people wonder for forty years when he could have just gone ‘abracadabra’ and place them in the land of milk and honey without having to fight for it? Why bother with parting the water? Why not just have the place dry when the Jewish people reached the place? Why? Why? Why? I think that it is because he respects human dignity and has permitted us free will. If God thinks that we are ok, so do I.
Baptism:
Jesus did it.
In Matthew 28: 16-20 we read the following:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The Sacrament of Baptism is a command from Our Lord Jesus and we are merely following. How do the Friends explain not following this command?
Thank you for your time.
God bless,
Abba
C
Ceil-1
Guest
Can you elaborate on “passive non-resistance”? I am thinking along the lines of allowing the Jews to be dragged to their holocaust, babies to the abortionist, a person being robbed/murdered in our presence. Is deadly force ever allowed?
P
Publisher
Guest
Friends believe scripture points us toward God…“it points us to the Source, but it is not the Source in itself.”Hello Publisher,
An interesting thread, I am learning here about the belief of the Friends.
Now, if I follow the logic to it’s end, that is this train of thought and perception or understanding, and if it were correct; why would God even bother creating a physical world? But, God, we read in Genesis, saw that it was GOOD. I agree,
Then, there is la creme de la creme of his creation.
God’s creation is GOOD and this human body has its function, we have the senses to perceive, we think, etc… and we conduct ‘outward forms’ due to the human function in it’s complexity and totality - which can be established by scripture - is GOOD. To say that, we need to do ‘outward’ things to do certain things, achieve certain goals and communicate certain things. Human beings are social and this is all GOOD.
Do Quakers consider the Bible to be Sacred Scripture? If so, what books do they consider to compose the Bible?
If ‘outward forms’ were bad and the spiritual realm is what counts exclusively, then why would God allow the Crucifixion? Why have Moses build an altar with a snake? Why have Moses throw a stick on the ground to become a snake and eat the other snake, why all the show? Why have the Jewish people wonder for forty years when he could have just gone ‘abracadabra’ and place them in the land of milk and honey without having to fight for it? Why bother with parting the water? Why not just have the place dry when the Jewish people reached the place? Why? Why? Why? I think that it is because he respects human dignity and has permitted us free will. If God thinks that we are ok, so do I.
Baptism:
Jesus did it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...20px-Baptism-of-Christ-xx-Francesco-Alban.JPG
In Matthew 28: 16-20 we read the following:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The Sacrament of Baptism is a command from Our Lord Jesus and we are merely following. How do the Friends explain not following this command?
Thank you for your time.
God bless,
Abba
We understand that Jesus was baptized…he was also circumcised…he was a nominal Jew who also kept kosher…he worshipped on Seventh Day, he worshipped in the Temple…he did many Jewish things…such as the “mikvah” or baptism…should we.
Life itself is sacrament…it cannot be divided into simply 7 sacramental acts to be pointed to and say “I have fulfilled a ritual requirement, so I have gained “something” by this ritual.” Jesus did not come to exchange one set of rituals for a different set of rituals. He taught our lives are “living rituals” to be performed in and before the world…not just in “outward forms”…and especially not if one is placed “above us” to perform the ritual for us…to us…or on our behalf…we share in his priesthood…
P
Publisher
Guest
continued…I understand that the scriptures speak of such things…a popular saying Friends use is…“Thee tells me what the scriptures say…thee tells me what the apostles and prophets say…but what can thee say?” Our faith is experiential…we have experience the new life in Christ without the “outward forms” of rituals and rites…we have sought to infuse our lives with a sense of the holy…every walk in the rain is a “baptism”…every cup of water offered in his name is a sacrament…every meal shared is sacrament…work is sacrament…each and every moment…each and everything we do has the opportunity to take on “sacramental experience”…for Friends…outward signs are symbols that point toward something…we have already experienced baptism through the Spirit…so a ritual hardly does justice to the experience…the Living Reality…we experience his presence at each meal if we only recognize him sitting across the table from us…so a 'ritual meal" doesn’t seem the same for us when the Living Reality is present.Hello Publisher,
An interesting thread, I am learning here about the belief of the Friends.
Now, if I follow the logic to it’s end, that is this train of thought and perception or understanding, and if it were correct; why would God even bother creating a physical world? But, God, we read in Genesis, saw that it was GOOD. I agree,
Then, there is la creme de la creme of his creation.
God’s creation is GOOD and this human body has its function, we have the senses to perceive, we think, etc… and we conduct ‘outward forms’ due to the human function in it’s complexity and totality - which can be established by scripture - is GOOD. To say that, we need to do ‘outward’ things to do certain things, achieve certain goals and communicate certain things. Human beings are social and this is all GOOD.
Do Quakers consider the Bible to be Sacred Scripture? If so, what books do they consider to compose the Bible?
If ‘outward forms’ were bad and the spiritual realm is what counts exclusively, then why would God allow the Crucifixion? Why have Moses build an altar with a snake? Why have Moses throw a stick on the ground to become a snake and eat the other snake, why all the show? Why have the Jewish people wonder for forty years when he could have just gone ‘abracadabra’ and place them in the land of milk and honey without having to fight for it? Why bother with parting the water? Why not just have the place dry when the Jewish people reached the place? Why? Why? Why? I think that it is because he respects human dignity and has permitted us free will. If God thinks that we are ok, so do I.
Baptism:
Jesus did it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...20px-Baptism-of-Christ-xx-Francesco-Alban.JPG
In Matthew 28: 16-20 we read the following:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The Sacrament of Baptism is a command from Our Lord Jesus and we are merely following. How do the Friends explain not following this command?
Thank you for your time.
God bless,
Abba
The experience of the early church grew out of a Jewish understanding of ritual requirements of the Law…Jesus fulfilled those requirements…we no longer are under the “ritual requirements” of the Law…Jewish or Christian.
If water baptism brings a new life in Christ for you…then by all means practice it…for the people called Quakers…the True Baptism is what is essential…“a man can enter the waters of baptism a “dry sinner” and come out of them a “wet sinner” with no change whatsoever…but no one experiencing the baptism of the Holy Spirit can remain unchanged.”
The Bible is a place to start…it was written by those who were seeking to articulate their faith in Christ…but He is a Living Presence…a Living and True Teacher…“Christ is present among us to teach His People Himself”…the Bible is central to Friends belief…but it is not “law”.
P
Publisher
Guest
Friends in Nazi Germany broke the law of the land to smuggle Jews from Germany. Friends hid Jews and did a small part. Friends served the German victims in WW1 by feeding the children and assisting the German people in rebuilding…because Friends did not refused to assist any who came to them in need…be it Jew or Nazi…they at first were left alone…but those Friends who were caught breaking the law were severely punished.
Passive resistance often entails breaking the law to do what is right…if the law said “No one shall give aid to a Nazi on pain of punishment”…if a Nazi was wounded and came upon a Friend…that Friend most likely would go against the law…it is an unjust law…“No one shall aid a Jew or give them sanctuary…”…the same Friend would also break the law of the land…we do not live by "the law of the land’ when it is in conflict with a “higher law”…well idealy we don’t…some Friends are moved to violence…but it is not our way…we don’t necessarily have to cooperate…but not cooperating and if willing to face the consequences of non cooperation…that is “passive resistance”…“passive resistance” is a way of making those who oppress “work harder”…to the point where oppression doesn’t seem like an option any longer…“passive resistance’ works toward other resolutions to conflice than violence…like Ghandi did in India…he was far from 'passive”…he employed “passive resistance” and freed a nation…Martin Luther King Jr used “passive resistance” to bring social equality for African Americans…boycotts…marches…demonstrations and some time willfully disobeying an unjust law understanding that the consequences may have to be paid.
P
Publisher
Guest
To a few of the other comments…I wonder…saying “Jesus commanded…ritual XYZ”…so they must be done…so often it appears to Friends that some of the other commandments Jesus also gave are for the most part ignored by his followers…“love one another…do good to those who despitefully use you…pray for your enemies…turn the other cheek…carry their load a second mile…feed the hungry…visit the sick…give a cup of water to someone who is thirsty” if these acts…“rituals” were done with equal determination…not just on Sunday…but every day…not just once…but at all times by ALL who follow him…not just those in the “ministry” or “priesthood” or "religious life’…but every one of us who sits or stands in their respective meetinghouse each First Day…which would be more beneficial for our lost and hurting world?
The Quaker movement arose when “sacraments” and “rituals” were seen as “necessary”…more “necessary” it seemed than “walking the walk”.
Some Friends went to jail because the refused to have their children baptized…some Friends went to jail beacuse they had removed their prayer book from their Bibles…which were published together in England…some Friends spent prison time because they refused to pay the tithe to the “heirling priests”.
The Living Reality of Christ Living Presence in the midst of his people is something Friends have sought to regain…and for the most part we feel somewhat sucessful…we have experience this Presence in our individual and corporate worship without the “outward forms”…if the Presence is experience in the midst of these “forms”…we have no quarrel with it…for us…the “outward forms” are unecessary…the Living Presence we experience is the only ‘proof’ we need.
The Quaker movement arose when “sacraments” and “rituals” were seen as “necessary”…more “necessary” it seemed than “walking the walk”.
Some Friends went to jail because the refused to have their children baptized…some Friends went to jail beacuse they had removed their prayer book from their Bibles…which were published together in England…some Friends spent prison time because they refused to pay the tithe to the “heirling priests”.
The Living Reality of Christ Living Presence in the midst of his people is something Friends have sought to regain…and for the most part we feel somewhat sucessful…we have experience this Presence in our individual and corporate worship without the “outward forms”…if the Presence is experience in the midst of these “forms”…we have no quarrel with it…for us…the “outward forms” are unecessary…the Living Presence we experience is the only ‘proof’ we need.
C
Ceil-1
Guest
Jesus had said to the Pharisees that they should have done the one, while not neglecting the other.
In terms of what we do, the one is worship of God. The other of mercy to neighbor. When we participate in the “ritual” aspect of it, we are sure of fulfilling the proscripts of God in terms of how He wants to be worshipped. In other words, both/and, not one versus the other. if we neglect either, we are culpable.
I always admired the Quakers for their part in the underground railroad.
In terms of what we do, the one is worship of God. The other of mercy to neighbor. When we participate in the “ritual” aspect of it, we are sure of fulfilling the proscripts of God in terms of how He wants to be worshipped. In other words, both/and, not one versus the other. if we neglect either, we are culpable.
I always admired the Quakers for their part in the underground railroad.
B
brb3
Guest
Yes, but Christ instituted Baptism and the Eucharist. Both can be undertaken by someone out of curiosity or novelty reasons … and they will have no effacacious effects on them. But, for those who receive rightly in faith … they are transformative, sacraments of spiritual/physical supernatural healing.
Christ established baptism via John, being baptized himself by him. Why do Friends not see and keep the traditions instituted by Christ ?
P
Publisher
Guest
Jesus was baptized as a Jew…the “mikvah” ritual cleansing which John was offering.
Friends reject the idea that Jesus “instituted” a new set of rituals in place of the old ones. “Baptism” means “to dip” or to “immerse”…Friends seek to be “immersed” in His Life…His word…immersed in His Spirit.
I this new life in Christ can occur without “outward forms” and be absen from one’s life with “outward forms”…then there is a disconnect somewhere.
Anyone can participate in the eucharist offered by priest or minister and remain unchanged…anyone can be baptized by priest or minister and remain unchanged…they in and of themselves do nothing to effect an inward and spiritual change evidenced by an outward life…but being baptised in the Spirit…eating the Living Bread and drinking the Living Water and communing with Him does make us “new creations”…if one has the Immediate Reality…then the ‘outward forms’ do not seem necessary.
Many people are ‘turned off’ by the Quaker message…they want to be ‘baptized’…they want to participate in the eucharist…they want something “done to them” of hold something tangible in their hands and reflect on they “symbols” of the rituals…Friends offer something tangible…service to others…if “ritual” is required, then it seems the “ritual” of serving meals at the homeless shelter…or the “ritual” of cleaning up a vacant lot…or the “ritual” of gathering food for food banks have a greater impact on our world…or at least our “immediate” world in which we live…than eating a piece of ritually blessed bread and wine once a week…IF participating in the eucharist each Sunday at your place of worship causes you to do these things…so much the better.
It seems to us…and we are willing to “take our chances” so to speak…that the best way to fulfill a “holy day of obligation” would be to take a neighbor to the doctor…or make sure an elderly person who lives down the street from us has enough to eat…or a sick person in the hospital just needs a friendly visit.
Friends do have “rituals and rites”…it’s just hard to notice the things we do as “rituals and sacraments” them at times.
It has always made a very deep impression on me that the dialog at the Last Judgement centered around what we did or didn’t do for those around us who wore the face of Christ rather than whether we were dunked in water or ate a token piece of bread and drank a sip of wine each Sunday…we do not discourage others from doing such things IF their “outward forms” employed brings inner change evidenced by outward behavior.
As one Friend stated…
"We do not reject the spiritual realities toward which sacraments point. We recognize baptism as the transformation of life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We recognize communion as the presence of Jesus Christ in our corporate worship. We recognize ordination as the diverse giftedness for ministry of all people. We recognize these things, and rejoice in them, but we do not believe that the church should seek to initiate them through ritual means.
Without getting too deep into theology, it is important to bring in here the fact that our understanding of the nature of the church is based on a realized eschatology of the new covenant. The old system has passed away, and Christ is present among us to lead us into an experience of the kingdom, here and now. Therefore, we reject all interim structures of authority, and seek in all ways to be obedient to the immediate leadership of Christ. As the Friends in Lausanne stated, “We believe that a corporate practice of the presence of God, a corporate knowledge of Christ in our midst, a common experience of the work of the living Spirit, constitute the supremely real sacrament of a Holy Communion.” (Nuhn p. 20)
B
brb3
Guest
Publisher;6429993 said:
Problem is this … Christ disagrees with your ideas on the Church, and Salvation.
Christ instituted Water Baptism and Eucharist. He told his Apostles and Disciples to do both, in his Church. The final teaching of Christ to his Apostles before the Cross … was on the importance of the Eucharist for the Church. And, his final words to them before his ascension was to take that GOSPEL message to All the World, BAPTIZING the new converts in name of the TRINITY, and teaching them to observe ALL THINGS Christ had commanded them.
So, Baptism and Eucharist are key ESSENTIALS. Why truncate Christ’s imperatives ?
P
Publisher
Guest
I don’t know that Jesus disagrees with me…I understand that you do however. If I actually believed he had indeed exchanged an old set of rituals for a new set of rituals…I’d not be a Friend…but I do not believe he did…he came to remove and fulfill any need for rituals. A ritual must be performed by someone else for on my behalf…I have no other Mediator to do for me what I could not do for myself other than Jesus. I reject any idea of a “priesthood” that stands in the stead of Christ…This True Priest has done all ritual work already for me…none else is needed.
If the rituals and rites you employ does bring you closer to the One who gave Himself for you…wonderful…they are “empty forms” for me.
A
Abba
Guest
Hello Publisher,
I am finding this thread very interesting. I had no idea of what the Friends believed and it is quite a concept. At some point I will read up on the history of the Quakers and who and how it was established.
I just read the Anathemas Against Origen ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html I just bumped into this while doing a little research on another topic. In reading I thought, Whaoh!!! He would have made an excellent story teller. What an imagination! It made me think about how we come to know God. It is not through the intellect. It is through the soul who is given the Grace by God to come to know what the soul does know of God. God gives knowledge of himself to whom he pleases.
It is truly amazing how some people read the Bible over and over again and speak and write as though they have never read it. Some time ago, I watched some videos on Youtube of professors from a distinguished university speak about the Bible. Amazing! They missed the boat. Yet, a child can speak with such great faith and wisdom and a very poor old uneducated farmer who prays the rosary every day and never paid a dime to be educated can speak so clearly about Our Lord Jesus Christ - it’s beautiful!
I think we need to be theologians on our knees as some people say We receive graces from God when we pray. This of course not to mention when we receive the Sacraments. I can’t think of a biblical quote right now and please excuse me, but, it is God that gives knowledge of himself. Praying is very good. I usually pray (call the Holy Spirit etc…) before I read or pray with the Bible and ask God to give me understanding. This works!:yup: If we humbly ask for wisdom the veil starts to come down. We need to begin to die for self and live for Christ in order to continue to make progress.
Not to write too choppy, but, I am on my way out to the dentist
, however, I would like to touch on another thought briefly. What about God’s Will? Can I decide on my own accord how I will be saved?
May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you and May Our Blessed Mother Mary Protect you and guide you to her son,
Abba
I am finding this thread very interesting. I had no idea of what the Friends believed and it is quite a concept. At some point I will read up on the history of the Quakers and who and how it was established.
I just read the Anathemas Against Origen ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html I just bumped into this while doing a little research on another topic. In reading I thought, Whaoh!!! He would have made an excellent story teller. What an imagination! It made me think about how we come to know God. It is not through the intellect. It is through the soul who is given the Grace by God to come to know what the soul does know of God. God gives knowledge of himself to whom he pleases.
It is truly amazing how some people read the Bible over and over again and speak and write as though they have never read it. Some time ago, I watched some videos on Youtube of professors from a distinguished university speak about the Bible. Amazing! They missed the boat. Yet, a child can speak with such great faith and wisdom and a very poor old uneducated farmer who prays the rosary every day and never paid a dime to be educated can speak so clearly about Our Lord Jesus Christ - it’s beautiful!
I think we need to be theologians on our knees as some people say
We receive graces from God when we pray. This of course not to mention when we receive the Sacraments. I can’t think of a biblical quote right now and please excuse me, but, it is God that gives knowledge of himself. Praying is very good. I usually pray (call the Holy Spirit etc…) before I read or pray with the Bible and ask God to give me understanding. This works!:yup: If we humbly ask for wisdom the veil starts to come down. We need to begin to die for self and live for Christ in order to continue to make progress.Not to write too choppy, but, I am on my way out to the dentist
, however, I would like to touch on another thought briefly. What about God’s Will? Can I decide on my own accord how I will be saved?May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you and May Our Blessed Mother Mary Protect you and guide you to her son,
Abba
P
Publisher
Guest
I don’t know what the Will of God is for you. I can only determine that for myself as I sit in meeting and Listen as closely as I can…I may get some things wrong…and I may get a few right. In reading scripture and early Christian doctrinal development, early Christian writings and groups…I have come to believe we are creatures of habit…it is no shock to me that the “proto-orthodox/catholic” gained prominence as the dominant group to come out of the first century, labeling all others “heretic”. If I believed the history the CC and EO claim, I would not be a Friend.Hello Publisher,
INot to write too choppy, but, I am on my way out to the dentist
May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you and May Our Blessed Mother Mary Protect you and guide you to her son,
Abba
The work and life of Jesus of Nazareth came to remove barriers with God…we are new creations…seeking to have communion with Giod as did Adam and Eve before the “fall”…that is the mythic telling…God entering our humanity to show how much we were loved…we live in the “fulfillment” of the Kingdom of God…“God with us”…with Him Truly Present among us, we have no need for ‘outward forms’ and "rituals’ to gain access to this New Life other than to give ourselves to Him in faith…and living that transformed life He offers…He is a True and Present Teacher…so no other teacher, priest or rabbi is necessary to perform a ritual for us or with us…all ritual requirements have been fulfilled in Christ…“For I desire mercy over sacrifice”…“The Temple of God now dwells with man”…“Immanuel-God With Us”…we Experience the Living Presence and experience the Reality of which the sacraments point to…He alone is the dispencer of grace…
A good book…one of my favorite devotionals is “Testament of Devotion” by Thomas R Kelly…I return to it often…I understand your beliefs and why you believe them…I simply do not.
Peace also be with you.
B
brb3
Guest
The Church teaches we have ONLY ONE priest, Christ. The Catholic priesthood, only serves at the direction of Christ, as his hands here on earth. Father Corapi said this in his teaching of the Catholic Catechism … made the point most emphatically.I have no other Mediator to do for me what I could not do for myself other than Jesus. I reject any idea of a “priesthood” that stands in the stead of Christ…This True Priest has done all ritual work already for me…none else is needed.
If the rituals and rites you employ does bring you closer to the One who gave Himself for you…wonderful…they are “empty forms” for me.
The 12 Apostles chosen by Christ, represented the new 12 tribes of God. Peter was selected/directed to serve as Christ’s righthand man/servant. Just as Joshua had served Moses, DIRECTED by God for his role assisting Moses.
A
Abba
Guest
Good morning Publisher,
What problems exactly do you see in early church history? Why do you not believe the early church history and what claims exactly of the Eastern Orthodox do you see a problem with?
Peace,
Abba
P.s. I remember back in Middle School studying William Penn, the state of Pennsylvania and the Quakers. But, I never learned about the theology of the Friends. It has been kind of vague to me but, I am learning about it now thanks to you. I’ll do some online reading today. Any recommended reading?
P
Publisher
Guest
I see various struggles between those who followed Jesus of Nazareth and the established Jewish understanding of what the messiah was to be. I see various groups that formed around influential leaders vying for supremacy. Out of the second century came a group of men who structured a “faith story” influenced by their “pagan past” once Christianity became separated from Judaism…prior to this “separation” Christianity was another Jewish sect…with those Messianic Jews and “God fearers” worshipping along side their Jewish brothers.Good morning Publisher,
What problems exactly do you see in early church history? Why do you not believe the early church history and what claims exactly of the Eastern Orthodox do you see a problem with?
Peace,
Abba
P.s. I remember back in Middle School studying William Penn, the state of Pennsylvania and the Quakers. But, I never learned about the theology of the Friends. It has been kind of vague to me but, I am learning about it now thanks to you. I’ll do some online reading today. Any recommended reading?
In Acts every city Paul visited he went to the Jewish community and found those who believed in Jesus as messiah…eventually, especially after the destruction of the temple about 70CE, Christianity became it’s own religion…“they will put you out of the synagouges”…and they did…but divorced from it’s Jewish roots Christianity adopted rituals and rites…similar to what had previously taken place…and set up a “priesthood”…someone to “stand in the stead of Christ” and perform these rites and rituals on behalf of the believers…along with the emerging “canon” and the writings of those leaders now called the ECF’s, our dominant form of Christianity emerged once it aligned itself a few generations later with the Roman government…all other understandings of what it meant to be a follower of Jesus of Nazareth was quelched and branded “heretic”. Competing writings were destroyed…those writings which agreed with the emerging heirarchy remained.
The Catholic/Orthodox church is not a divinely instituted organization.
The Church is made of all who have found new life in Christ and live according to the Spirit.
For those who find strength in rituals and rites…wonderful…but unless those rituals and rites inspire inward change in outward behavior…they are empty “symbols”…this Inward Life can occur without the rituals and rites…so we do not see the need to engage in “outward forms” or rituals that to us, would seem to take the place of the Reality we have already experienced without them.
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