Any secular arguments against birth control?

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I’m pretty sure a single cell (ovum) wouldn’t show up on an ultrasound.
The follicular diameter is measured, and when the ovum bursts through, the follicle will collapse. This can all be clearly detected by an ultrasound, and it is used frequently in cases of women having difficulty becoming pregnant to determine whether she is ovulating.
 
No, but any acceptable answer must be rational and reasonable. And if it proves me wrong, so be it. 🙂

If one takes the Genesis as a literal description of what transpired there, then the only way of propagating the human race was by incest. Adam and Eve were directly created. They brought forth their children. The next generation needed incest in some form. Either parent to child or sibling to sibling. If it was OK back then, then why should it be a no-no today?

The scenario you mentioned is ill advised. If there is an unfortunate event of procreation, the progeny will have a serious chance of defects. That is the reason why incest became a social taboo.
Ah, but you said secular arguments, not religious ones. So why are you bringing up the bible? If you want secular arguments, and not religious ones. Then you need to stay on the secular side too.

And BTW: Catholics, in general, don’t rely on a literal interpretation of the Bible. It is the Inspired Word of God.
 
Spontaneous abortion. It happens.
Ahh, gotcha. Indeed it does. 😦
When the neurons start to fire. That is when the mind starts. It happens about at the end of the first trimester. It is the decisive event, the activity of the brain. That is when we can start to talk about a person.
I see. So a prenate becomes a human being when neurons start to fire.

…I’ve heard a lot of ideas on when this “magical” transformation into human race takes place (during birth, when the heart starts beating, when it “looks like a person enough,” when it consists of a certain number of cells, etc etc…) I can’t say I’ve ever heard the neurons firing theory though.

To me, the idea that we can somehow assign an arbitrary point during development where that new life becomes person-like enough to magically “become a human” is almost medieval in its naivete and simplicity.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree here. 🙂
It depends on the remaining functionality. Life is not always black and white. Poor Terry Schiavo did not have enough of her brain left which would function to sustain personhood.
I agree there wasn’t enough life left in her, nor was there hope for recovery. But I don’t think this took away the fact that she was human, even when she was on the state of being brain dead. 🤷

A healthy prenate however, is still growing and developing (like we all are up until the day we die). It’s different from being victim to some freak accident that leaves you hopelessly brain dead.
Indeed. And why is it relevant? There is nothing special about “life”. Personhood is where it becomes important.
I dunno… I think life is pretty special. :confused:
That’s probably a whole other argument though.

To answer your question, it is relevant because I was stressing that it is not only a life, it is a human life. Which is why I used you as an example by saying you came into existence the minute you were conceived. Although I guess my point is lost anyway, if you truly believe you were not a human being until neurons began firing in your brain. But now at least you understand where I was trying to go with that.
 
The follicular diameter is measured, and when the ovum bursts through, the follicle will collapse. This can all be clearly detected by an ultrasound, and it is used frequently in cases of women having difficulty becoming pregnant to determine whether she is ovulating.
Ah I see. So it’s not the cell itself they are looking for.
 
I agree that pregnancy begins at implantation as otherwise there is a huge number of miscarriages happening all the time. Ironically, NFP actually causes far more of these miscarriages than the Pill does (due to the fact that the Pill prevents ovulation).
  1. NFP doesn’t “cause” any miscarriages. Miscarriages may occur while one is using NFP, but that is different from actual “causation”.
  2. My understanding is that the Pill works by a) inhibiting ovulation, b) making cervical mucous thick (which inhibits the mobility of sperm) and c) inhibiting implantation (should actions “a” and “b” fail and fertilization occurs).
In case “c”, we’re talking about an early chemical abortion - something that NFP can never cause.

The following is some worthwhile material regarding The Pill and abortion:
Noted Endocrinologist Explains How the Birth Control Pill Causes Abortion

Video: How “The Pill” Works as an Abortifacient
  1. Regarding when “pregnancy” begins, that seems to be more of a linguistic question than a scientific one (here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_pregnancy_controversy). The key issue is simple, imo: when does human life begin? This is a scientific question that has a clear answer: Human life begins at conception.
clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=28

fallibleblogma.com/index.php/when-does-science-say-human-life-begins/

lifeissues.net/writers/kisc/kisc_34lifebegins.html
 
I dunno… I think life is pretty special. :confused:
That’s probably a whole other argument though. To answer your question, it is relevant because I was stressing that it is not only a life, it is a human life. Which is why I used you as an example by saying you came into existence the minute you were conceived. Although I guess my point is lost anyway, if you truly believe you were not a human being until neurons began firing in your brain. But now at least you understand where I was trying to go with that.
I agree, Debora. Life is pretty special. And science seems very clear as to when human life begins: at conception.

Human life begins at conception? Does science support that? Yes.
  1. “Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei … and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning … of a human being.” (Moore, Keith L., Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker, Inc., 1988, p.2.)
  2. “Although human life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed. … The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity.” (O’Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology and Teratology, 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29).
  3. “Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote). … The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.” (Carlson, Bruce M., Patten’s Foundations of Embryology, 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p.3.)
  4. “Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus.” (Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146.)
  5. “The fertilized egg, now properly called an embryo, must make its way to the uterus.” (Carlson, Bruce M., Human Embryology and Developmental Biology. St. Louis: Mosby, 1994, p.3).
  6. “From the moment a baby is conceived, it bears the indelible stamp of a separate distinct personality, an individual different from all other individuals.” Ultrasound pioneer, Sir William Liley, MD 1967
  7. “After fertilization has taken place, a new human being has come into existence. This is no longer a matter of taste of opinion. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.” Dr. Jerome Lejeune, genetics professor at the University of Descartes, Paris. Discoverer of the Down’s Syndrome chromosome
  8. “It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception.” Professor M. Matthew-Roth, Harvard University Medical School
  9. By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.” Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic
  10. “That is, in human reproduction, when sperm joins ovum, these two individual cells cease to be, and their union generates a new and distinct organism. This organism is a whole, though in the beginning developmentally immature, member of the human species. Readers need not take our word for this: They can consult any of the standard human-embryology texts, such as Moore and Persaud’s The Developing Human, Larsen’s Human Embryology, Carlson’s Human Embryology & Developmental Biology, and O’Rahilly and Mueller’s Human Embryology & Teratology.” – Dr. Robert George, “Embryo”
  11. “Human embryos, whether they are formed by fertilization (natural or in vitro) or by successful somatic-cell nuclear transfer (SCNT — i.e., cloning), do have the internal resources and active disposition to develop themselves to the mature stage of a human organism, requiring only a suitable environment and nutrition. In fact, scientists distinguish embryos from other cells or clusters of cells precisely by their self-directed, integral functioning — their organismal behavior. Thus, human embryos are what the embryology textbooks say they are, namely, human organisms — living individuals of the human species — at the earliest developmental stage.” – Dr. Robert George, “Embryo”
  12. The widely used medical textbook “The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology”, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998, states at page 2 that “The intricate processes by which a baby develops from a single cell are miraculous … This cell [the zygote] results from the union of an oocyte [egg] and sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being …” At page 18 this theme is repeated: “Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original] …”
Also recommended:

clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=28

fallibleblogma.com/index.php/when-does-science-say-human-life-begins/

lifeissues.net/writers/kisc/kisc_34lifebegins.html

channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/in-the-womb-2228#tab-Videos/01586_05

continues below…
 
This National Geographic video of a baby developing in the womb is also fascinating.

channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/videos/feeds/cv-seo/Full-Episodes/All-Full-Episodes/In-the-Womb-2.html

Four statements seem particularly interesting, but the entire video is worth watching:

“Once within the egg wall, the sperm’s nucleus is drawn toward the egg’s. The two cells gradually and gracefully become one. This is the moment of conception – when an individual’s unique set of DNA is created – a human signature that never existed before and will never be repeated.”

“The mother provides the shelter and the basics - food, water and oxygen. But the real star of the show is the fetus herself – building, dividing, growing according to an intricate set of plans created at the moment of conception.”

“The genes she’s [the girl shown in the womb] inherited already predetermine her looks and much of her character. Whether she’s stubborn or intelligent, a thrill-seeker or good at music and even her vulnerabilities to certain diseases like cancer, schizophrenia and diabetes. The exact course of her life will depend on such things as her friends, family and environment. But at the instant of fertilization, much of her future is predetermined.”

“Where it once seemed that the mental development of a baby began at birth, now it appears that birth could be a relatively insignificant event in developmental terms. She may have to support herself after birth, but as for the process of thinking, learning and remembering, she’s already been hard at it for three months [before birth]. And her brain will continue to grow at the same rate for the next year.”
 
Guess which pope wrote the following:
“The abandonment of the reproductive function is the common feature of all perversions. We actually describe a sexual activity as perverse if it has given up the aim of reproduction and pursues the attainment of pleasure as an aim independent of it.”
A) Pius X
B) Paul VI
C) Leo XIII
D) John Paul II



None of the above. It was that puritanical, sexual stick-in-the-mud, Sigmund Freud.

(Source: Christopher West, Good News About Sex & Marriage, Answers to Your Honest Questions about Catholic Teaching (Ann Arbor, MI: Charis Servant Publications, 2000), p.119)
 
The following is a letter I sent to Ann Coulter some time ago in response to an article she had written. I thought the story of elephants in Kruger National Park, South Africa, deserved to get a little more attention, too. It’s an interesting story.

LETTER:

Dear Miss Coulter,

I enjoyed your article on Harriet Miers (Who Was the 2nd Choice?). However, I was a bit confused and disappointed by your reference to the legal ban on contraception as “silly”. You explained the legal connection between Roe and Griswold quite well. And I believe the connection is equally clear in the moral sphere that the acceptance of contraception led naturally to abortion as well (and to euthanasia and homosexuality, I might add). They all emanate from the same philosophical train of thought.

How is making illegal that which fundamentally undermines the family unit “silly”? Certainly the law may simply reflect our values, but it is also a teacher, true? For most people, what is legal is moral. When contraception became legal, it spread like wild fire. And what is one of the top reasons cited for our 50% divorce rate? Infidelity. Is it reasonable to suppose that contraception played a rather direct role in encouraging men and women to cheat, knowing that the “evidence” won’t show up 9 months later (among other things)? I think so. And what is the back-up for failed contraception (real-world rates that are between 10-25%)? Abortion, of course (never mind the fact that “the pill” itself is abortifacient). “Hey, we had sex with NO intention of having a baby!”…so when the ‘mistake’ happens, what is the answer? Abortion. Contraception as an aid to lower abortion rates? No, I think the evidence strongly suggests just the opposite.

If you ever get a chance, it is worth doing some research into the case of contraception and elephants in Kruger National Park, South Africa. It’s an embarrassing little event that didn’t get much press aside from Rush Limbaugh. And even Rush never seemed to understand the implications fully. He merely used it to slap silly liberals for thinking they could solve every environmental problem.

So what happened? They used contraception (the elephant equivalent of “the pill”) to “control” elephant populations that were considered too high but had to stop the experiment abruptly because of the disastrous effects upon elephant society (and humans in the area!) including: 1) starving baby elephants because the mothers abandoned them in search of mates and because of #2, 2) Out of control male elephants that were obsessed with perpetually sexually available females (males that were also more dangerous to humans as a result, by the way).

Sound similar to human society?

However, fortunately, the elephants in this case had objective observers available to pull the plug when it was obvious that the experiment was a disaster. Humans are not so lucky. We are both the subject and the scientist. I suspect if we could communicate with the male elephants especially, they might have said, “Hey, wait a minute! What are you doing? We LOVE this stuff!” Just as their human counterparts do while society continues to disintegrate.

I believe you erred on this one.

Best,
Michael Forrest

P.S. Guess who wrote this:
“The abandonment of the reproductive function is the common feature of all perversions. We actually describe a sexual activity as perverse if it has given up the aim of reproduction and pursues the attainment of pleasure as an aim independent of it.”

Psychiatrist Sigmund Freud

Even sexually obsessed Sigmund got this one right……
 
I agree, Debora. Life is pretty special. And science seems very clear as to when human life begins: at conception.

Human life begins at conception? Does science support that? Yes.
Right on! Since it seems that science trumps that old fashioned “life is sacred” argument, let’s talk science… 👍

When a sperm and an egg join together and conceive a new life, in that instant a brand new set of DNA is created that exists nowhere else in the world. Everything about that new life is contained in that single cell…gender, hair color, eye color, allergies, talents, weaknesses, favorite foods, intelligence.

From that point on, that life will be constantly changing until it is ended. Conception and death are the only fixed points on the continuous line of a person’s life. The idea that we can somehow assign an arbitrary point during development where that new life becomes person-like enough to magically “become a human” is almost medieval in its naivete and simplicity!

We now have microscopic cameras that can see the miraculous process of that one new cell becoming two, becoming four, becoming eight. If you want to call it a “ball of cells,” you can, because we are all balls of cells! Is it the number of cells, then, that qualifies as a human or not?? That too is naive and petty.

*Whether it’s a single cell, or a 32 cell embryo, or a million cell fetus, or a multi trillion cell adult, it’s still a human life, entirely mapped out.
*
… Fifth grade biology! 🙂
 
The following is a letter I sent to Ann Coulter some time ago in response to an article she had written. I thought the story of elephants in Kruger National Park, South Africa, deserved to get a little more attention, too. It’s an interesting story.

LETTER:

Dear Miss Coulter,

I enjoyed your article on Harriet Miers (Who Was the 2nd Choice?). However, I was a bit confused and disappointed by your reference to the legal ban on contraception as “silly”. You explained the legal connection between Roe and Griswold quite well. And I believe the connection is equally clear in the moral sphere that the acceptance of contraception led naturally to acceptance of abortion as well (and to euthanasia and homosexuality, I might add). They all emanate from the same philosophical train of thought.

How is making illegal that which fundamentally undermines the family unit “silly”? Certainly the law may simply reflect our values, but it is also a teacher, true? For most people, what is legal is moral. When contraception became legal, it spread like wild fire. And what is one of the top reasons cited for our 50% divorce rate? Infidelity. Is it reasonable to suppose that contraception played a rather direct role in encouraging men and women to cheat, knowing that the “evidence” won’t show up 9 months later (among other things)? I think so. And what is the back-up for failed contraception (real-world rates that are between 10-25%)? Abortion, of course (never mind the fact that “the pill” itself is abortifacient). “Hey, we had sex with NO intention of having a baby!”…so when the ‘mistake’ happens, what is the answer? Abortion. Contraception as an aid to lower abortion rates? No, I think the evidence strongly suggests just the opposite.

If you ever get a chance, it is worth doing some research into the case of contraception and elephants in Kruger National Park, South Africa. It’s an embarrassing little event that didn’t get much press aside from Rush Limbaugh. And even Rush never seemed to understand the implications fully. He merely used it to slap silly liberals for thinking they could solve every environmental problem.

So what happened? They used contraception (the elephant equivalent of “the pill”) to “control” elephant populations that were considered too high but had to stop the experiment abruptly because of the disastrous effects upon elephant society (and humans in the area!) including: 1) starving baby elephants because the mothers abandoned them in search of mates and because of #2, 2) Out of control male elephants that were obsessed with perpetually sexually available females (males that were also more dangerous to humans as a result, by the way).

Sound similar to human society?

However, fortunately, the elephants in this case had objective observers available to pull the plug when it was obvious that the experiment was a disaster. Humans are not so lucky. We are both the subject and the scientist. I suspect if we could communicate with the male elephants especially, they might have said, “Hey, wait a minute! What are you doing? We LOVE this stuff!” Just as their human counterparts do while society continues to disintegrate.

I believe you erred on this one.

Best,
Michael Forrest

P.S. Guess who wrote this:
“The abandonment of the reproductive function is the common feature of all perversions. We actually describe a sexual activity as perverse if it has given up the aim of reproduction and pursues the attainment of pleasure as an aim independent of it.”

Psychiatrist Sigmund Freud

Even sexually obsessed Sigmund got this one right……
 
Some background support:

Kruger National Park, South Africa

While the first two articles dealt partially with a certain success of “immuno” contraception (as opposed to the hormonal contraception, which humans use), the information is nonetheless useful in the human comparison.
It seems also there is a problem of the “orphaned” babies who end up being very destructive adults.
pest.cabweb.org/Journals/BNI/…4/GenNews1.htm

Hormonal contraception using steroid sex hormones to disrupt the oestrus cycle is not species-specific and is also difficult to deliver to a wild population. In some species, at least, there may be undesirable behavioural side-effects to such treatment, as has been demonstrated in African elephants.
scienceinafrica.co.za/200…r/elephant.htm

Previous attempts at elephant contraception using drugs based on steroidal and sex hormones had led to bull elephants severely harassing females, which made them separate from their herds and even their calves.……the experts agreed that more information is needed on the long term effects of contraception, especially in such social animals.
zoo.upe.ac.za/teru/Elephants/…0in%20Addo.pdf

Two methods of contraception, that of hormonal implants….and the immunocontraception approach…have been tested…Although the evidence is not conclusive, both methods appear to show a reduction in fertilization with the former method (hormonal contraception) suggested to produce abberant behavior….
etv.co.za/~kanthanp/Perspex/19970426.html

Rumour has it that there can be found within the offices of the Kruger National Park a sign which reads Getting things done around here is like mating elephants …
IN this country, prior to British rule, men were men, women were women, and sheep were scared. People from the San to the Nguni respected animals, and ate them. The ancestors of today’s Afrikaners also respected animals, and shot them.

Then came the Brits, and with them came their bunny-hugging fascination with wildlife, and their preoccupation with sex – or rather, no sex.

These norms collided head on this week when an attempt to control elephant populations in the Kruger Park using contraceptive hormones didn’t quite turn out as expected.
The contraceptive part worked. Would-be Mama Elephants no longer fell pregnant. But they were also left permanently in heat. The wonders of modern medicine had turned homemakers into houris.

And the normally placid pachyderms were suddenly plunging through the park in an orgiastic frenzy. Family values were summarily abandoned. Hugh Hefner had annexed Disneyland.

And the rulers of the park said, this will not do!

“At one stage there were eight bulls around one cow,” said park veterinarian Douw Grobler. “This is unacceptable…” This is why, he said, the contraceptive program would be terminated.

Now this is all a bit much. An elephant’s job is to procreate. Deprived of their employment, they had merely done what (according to our Health Minister) the rest of us do – turned to recreational sex.

So what’s wrong with that? Strikes me that the potential here for attracting tourism is tremendous.

Let me put this in perspective. US film producers Spotted Dog this week announced a R300million production in this country next year called Mambo – a feel-good Hollywood bunny-hugger which has been codenamed “Free Willy with Tusks”.
At the Kruger Park today, most of the bull elephants immediately meet that job description. Cash-strapped conservationists can capitalise on the inevitable movie merchandising. “Come see the real thing, then buy your miniature Willy.” (Maybe that’s an oxymoron.)

But back to the British. The sudden lapse in Victorian values among our wildlife has clearly left them unsettled.

A British Broadcasting Corporation documentary is to be filmed in Uganda later this year, and requires elephants. Unlike us, Uganda does not have many elephants as they have generally been poached – (I don’t know, maybe they use very large kettles?) – and/or eaten.

The Brits have made it clear that they don’t want our elephants. Instead, about six of the beasts will be flown from from St Petersburg zoo to the Ugandan capital, Kampala.
The cargo manager of the airline chartered to transport the animals could not say why the BBC had decided to send elephants from Russia to Africa. (The elephants will be transported in containers on an Antonov AN-124 jet in September.)

To me, it’s perfectly obvious. Russian elephants staggering about in an alcohol-induced state of bewilderment more closely fit the “No sex please, we’re British” mindset than do our own horny tuskers.

And what’s accuracy in journalism when weighed against the need to keep a nation wrapped in blissful ignorance? As a large Afrikaner of my acquaintance is fond of saying, it’s enough to make a jackal puke.

globalpost.com/dispatch/s…hood-elephants

Other ways to control the elephant population include moving elephants to less-crowded areas, such as Mozambique, expanding the size of the parks and contraception. The current form of contraception used on elephants is similar to that used by humans, in which the female’s hormone levels are altered. But that method disrupts the social hierarchy of the female herds and results in erratic behavior.

In its announcement, the South African government said that elephant contraception’s “long term social, physiological and emotional impacts on elephants are not fully understood, and current contraception methods are highly invasive and should therefore be used with caution.”
 
My understanding is that the Pill works by a) inhibiting ovulation, b) making cervical mucous thick (which inhibits the mobility of sperm) and c) inhibiting implantation (should actions “a” and “b” fail and fertilization occurs).

In case “c”, we’re talking about an early chemical abortion - something that NFP can never cause.
Fertilization does not establish a pregnancy. Rather, fertilization is a necessary but insufficient step on the path to pregnancy. Any method of fertility regulation that acts before implantation is not an abortifacient, since no pregnancy exists. Major medical organizations, such as the World Health Organization, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists concur on this biological point.
~source

What you speak of is not an early chemical abortion. A chemical pregnancy would indicate the person was pregnant…meaning a positive hCG test. Meaning it had implanted. You won’t have a positive pregnancy test from an egg being fertilized. Only when it implants.​

Think about this guys: while a fertilized egg does indeed have its own new set of DNA etc, it can also split up - becoming twins or triplets or whatever. It’s not like she’s pregnant with one child and then becomes pregnant with two. It’s a fertilized egg - a zygote - and can become one or more embryos. So again, the egg-sperm combo is not a person…the embryo yeah - but it doesn’t become an embryo until it implants.
Y’all have said life begins at conception which is kind of true…but what about identical twins? Were both of them conceived at the same time? No. They became two separate identities - 2 different souls if you believe in that sort of thing - when the zygote became 2 embryos.
If you look at it that way…the soul must not exist until it implants!!! So if it doesn’t implant, no one died! Ahhh, something to think about, right? 😉
 
How do you guys feel about coitus interruptus? (withdrawl) From a secular perspective of course, as per the topic of this thread. The Onan thing has been discussed ad nauseum on other threads!

Deborah has distinguished between the morality of hormonal birth control versus barrier methods. I totally see her point on the beginning of life though I am also fine with abortion so the point is irrelevent to me personally. The varying degrees of morality are nevertheless worth distinguishing. In my opinion it goes elective abortion<therapeutic abortion<hormonal birth control and IUD<withdrawl=NFP (or periodic abstinence)<non-intercourse sexual acts. IMO, withdrawl and non-intercourse sexual acts shouldn’t be considered any worse than NFP. Thoughts?
 
Fertilization does not establish a pregnancy. Rather, fertilization is a necessary but insufficient step on the path to pregnancy. Any method of fertility regulation that acts before implantation is not an abortifacient, since no pregnancy exists. Major medical organizations, such as the World Health Organization, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists concur on this biological point.
~source

What you speak of is not an early chemical abortion. A chemical pregnancy would indicate the person was pregnant…meaning a positive hCG test. Meaning it had implanted. You won’t have a positive pregnancy test from an egg being fertilized. Only when it implants.

+++++

When a woman’s body recognizes that it has a new, distinct member of the species Homo Sapiens growing within it is not the issue. The scientific fact is, human life begins at conception. Are you suggesting that having a doubt about something theological/philosophical such as precisely when the soul enters is justification to kill it?
 
Fertilization does not establish a pregnancy. Rather, fertilization is a necessary but insufficient step on the path to pregnancy. Any method of fertility regulation that acts before implantation is not an abortifacient, since no pregnancy exists

Think about this guys: while a fertilized egg does indeed have its own new set of DNA etc, it can also split up - becoming twins or triplets or whatever. It’s not like she’s pregnant with one child and then becomes pregnant with two. It’s a fertilized egg - a zygote - and can become one or more embryos. So again, the egg-sperm combo is not a person…the embryo yeah - but it doesn’t become an embryo until it implants.
Y’all have said life begins at conception which is kind of true…but what about identical twins? Were both of them conceived at the same time? No. They became two separate identities - 2 different souls if you believe in that sort of thing - when the zygote became 2 embryos.
If you look at it that way…the soul must not exist until it implants!!! So if it doesn’t implant, no one died! Ahhh, something to think about, right? 😉
I think that’s a non-sequitur. When a woman’s body recognizes that it has a new, distinct member of the species Homo Sapiens growing within it is not the issue. The scientific fact is, human life begins at conception. From that moment, it has it’s own unique identity and its own life force that directs its development. Nothing you brought forward alters those facts. It seems that you’re suggesting that having a doubt about something theological/philosophical such as precisely when the soul enters can be a justification/rationalization for killing it.
 
I haven’t read through the elephant articles, as I do not have time right now. I did notice something glaring in the excerpts though. It appears that elephants do not naturally have recreational sex. Humans do, as do a limited number of animals. With regard to humans, recreational sex is observed occurring in various tribes that have little to no contact with modern man, nor do these tribes have any contraception.

It would be improper to compare an animal that does not have recreational sex with one that does. One would have to use another animal, say another primate, as a control group.
 
Fertilization does not establish a pregnancy. Rather, fertilization is a necessary but insufficient step on the path to pregnancy. Any method of fertility regulation that acts before implantation is not an abortifacient, since no pregnancy exists. Major medical organizations, such as the World Health Organization, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists concur on this biological point.

What you speak of is not an early chemical abortion. A chemical pregnancy would indicate the person was pregnant…meaning a positive hCG test. Meaning it had implanted. You won’t have a positive pregnancy test from an egg being fertilized. Only when it implants.
I think we’ve pretty much already been over this and established the fact that it’s just a play on words. The fact of the matter is a life is terminated irregardless of whether or not there was an actual pregnancy in the medical sense of the word.
Think about this guys: while a fertilized egg does indeed have its own new set of DNA etc, it can also split up - becoming twins or triplets or whatever. It’s not like she’s pregnant with one child and then becomes pregnant with two. It’s a fertilized egg - a zygote - and can become one or more embryos. So again, the egg-sperm combo is not a person…the embryo yeah - but it doesn’t become an embryo until it implants.
Y’all have said life begins at conception which is kind of true…but what about identical twins? Were both of them conceived at the same time? No. They became two separate identities - 2 different souls if you believe in that sort of thing - when the zygote became 2 embryos.
If you look at it that way…the soul must not exist until it implants!!! So if it doesn’t implant, no one died! Ahhh, something to think about, right? 😉
I have heard this argument being made before, and it is a good argument. I don’t quite remember what the response to it was though, but I will find out for you and let you know!
 
How do you guys feel about coitus interruptus? (withdrawl) From a secular perspective of course, as per the topic of this thread. The Onan thing has been discussed ad nauseum on other threads!

Deborah has distinguished between the morality of hormonal birth control versus barrier methods. I totally see her point on the beginning of life though I am also fine with abortion so the point is irrelevent to me personally. The varying degrees of morality are nevertheless worth distinguishing. In my opinion it goes elective abortion<therapeutic abortion<hormonal birth control and IUD<withdrawl=NFP (or periodic abstinence)<non-intercourse sexual acts. IMO, withdrawl and non-intercourse sexual acts shouldn’t be considered any worse than NFP. Thoughts?
I have no problem with withdrawal in the moral sense. I do think it kinda sucks though and is definitely not a very safe/effective way of preventing a pregnancy lol. I personally wouldn’t do it. I also have no problem with non-intercourse sexual acts. 😊
 
Think about this guys: while a fertilized egg does indeed have its own new set of DNA etc, it can also split up - becoming twins or triplets or whatever. It’s not like she’s pregnant with one child and then becomes pregnant with two. It’s a fertilized egg - a zygote - and can become one or more embryos. So again, the egg-sperm combo is not a person…the embryo yeah - but it doesn’t become an embryo until it implants.
Y’all have said life begins at conception which is kind of true…but what about identical twins? Were both of them conceived at the same time? No. They became two separate identities - 2 different souls if you believe in that sort of thing - when the zygote became 2 embryos.
If you look at it that way…the soul must not exist until it implants!!! So if it doesn’t implant, no one died! Ahhh, something to think about, right? 😉
Here ya go Sam 🙂
I haven’t had much time to research but this is what I got from a quick search I did using CAF:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=16880

Hope that helps!
 
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