Any SSPX "converts" to Rome out there?

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I would like to clarify quiet clearly that SSPX does not teach sedevacantism nor believe in it. They teach that the Pope is a true and valid Pope and the legitimate head of the Church. They just don’t always agree with the Pope and disagree with the direction the Popes have taken the church over the last 40 or so years. In fact we are instructed by our Priests to pray for the Pope daily, using his name, and most families I know do just that when we pray the rosary.

Here is a link to their official position on sedevacantism; sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q15_sedevacantists.htm

I quote from that reference: This being so, we ought not to associate with, or, receive the sacraments from them, most especially if they set up sedevacantism as a certitude which all have to accept.
And this may be what they are saying in writing and with their words but what are they saying with their actions when:

a) Archbishop (status questionable) LeFebvre has still kept status within the SSPX and still remains a visible symbol of the SSPX including one of staunch of disobedience.

b) As recently as this month a group of newly Ordained (Ordinations questionable) priests from the SSPX in Rome refused audience with the Pope. (I don’t care what you are doing - bad form)

These are two major points - I would suggest you read some non-SSPX literature like from the Magisterium on where SSPX stands with Rome. The Chapter on the Williamson affair from Light of the World is actually very simply written for the layperson - also the footnotes will take you farther in.

If the actions did not support Sedevacantism why is it that you have so many?
 
And this may be what they are saying in writing and with their words but what are they saying with their actions when:

a) Archbishop (status questionable) LeFebvre has still kept status within the SSPX and still remains a visible symbol of the SSPX including one of staunch of disobedience.

b) As recently as this month a group of newly Ordained (Ordinations questionable) priests from the SSPX in Rome refused audience with the Pope. (I don’t care what you are doing - bad form)

These are two major points - I would suggest you read some non-SSPX literature like from the Magisterium on where SSPX stands with Rome. The Chapter on the Williamson affair from Light of the World is actually very simply written for the layperson - also the footnotes will take you farther in.

If the actions did not support Sedevacantism why is it that you have so many?
I don’t deny there is a level of disobedience towards Rome, the reasons and justification are long and complicated & the debate on this does not belong in this thread. (And someone more experienced and knowledgable than me should be involved in the debate) But, as I said, and as you agreed, the writings and teachings of SSPX do not support sedavacantism. We are taught it is a heresy, so, I don’t understand why you think SSPX is full of sedevacantists. It’s certainly news to me.
 
I don’t deny there is a level of disobedience towards Rome, the reasons and justification are long and complicated & the debate on this does not belong in this thread. (And someone more experienced and knowledgable than me should be involved in the debate) But, as I said, and as you agreed, the writings and teachings of SSPX do not support sedavacantism. We are taught it is a heresy, so, I don’t understand why you think SSPX is full of sedevacantists. It’s certainly news to me.
Because I have personally met many a sedevacantist during my time who has tried to convert me to this cause and you know where they attend mass - every last one of them - SSPX. :cool:

So again - why not check out those religious orders that do not have a questionable communion with Rome that can still offer you a Latin mass? Because one thing that we can both agree on is that at present time SSPX is not in full communion Rome meaning they cannot celebrate all Sacraments. This means you are unable to receive the Sacrament of Penance - meaning if you do not go to a non-SSPX parish a minimum of once a year for absolution you are outside the Precepts of the Catholic Church. These are very basics of the faith that you NEED to be able to answer.
 
Because I have personally met many a sedevacantist during my time who has tried to convert me to this cause and you know where they attend mass - every last one of them - SSPX. :cool:

So again - why not check out those religious orders that do not have a questionable communion with Rome that can still offer you a Latin mass? Because one thing that we can both agree on is that at present time SSPX is not in full communion Rome meaning they cannot celebrate all Sacraments. This means you are unable to receive the Sacrament of Penance - meaning if you do not go to a non-SSPX parish a minimum of once a year for absolution you are outside the Precepts of the Catholic Church. These are very basics of the faith that you NEED to be able to answer.

I’d say those sede’s who attend SSPX chapels —do it for the reason that they have no where else to go for the TLM. From reading Trad sites— it is my understanding – the SSPX will kick out anyone (priests/laypersons) who openly hold the sede view. But I also take into account that there may be closet sedes among the SSPX clergy and laity.
 

I’d say those sede’s who attend SSPX chapels —do it for the reason that they have no where else to go for the TLM. From reading Trad sites— it is my understanding – the SSPX will kick out anyone (priests/laypersons) who openly hold the sede view. But I also take into account that there may be closet sedes among the SSPX clergy and laity.
So again - why not check out those religious orders that do not have a questionable communion with Rome that can still offer you a Latin mass? Because one thing that we can both agree on is that at present time SSPX is not in full communion Rome meaning they cannot celebrate all Sacraments. This means you are unable to receive the Sacrament of Penance - meaning if you do not go to a non-SSPX parish a minimum of once a year for absolution you are outside the Precepts of the Catholic Church. These are very basics of the faith that you NEED to be able to answer.
OK so this first part is great - but more importantly I would like someone who is actively attending an SSPX parish to answer this paragraph because the question keeps getting ignored?
 
OK so this first part is great - but more importantly I would like someone who is actively attending an SSPX parish to answer this paragraph because the question keeps getting ignored?
I agree the SSPX is not in full communion with Rome, and I doubt it will be while there are major disagreements on the direction the church has taken since vatican II. And, I don’t have a problem with that.

But I disagree with your comment about the sacraments. They obviously celebrate all the sacraments and I believe them to be valid, for reasons that someone more qualified and knowledgeable than me should explain. (And probably in a separate thread??)

In any case, I credit the SSPX with my finding the faith, with most certainly turning my life around, possibly even saving my life and at least giving me a chance to save my soul. I am happy to be actively attending a SSPX parish and be surrounded with mostly very good & pious people, & priests, all simply trying to live a good & pious Catholic life. As they say, you can judge a tree by its fruit.

May God bless you & my best wishes go with you.
 
I agree the SSPX is not in full communion with Rome, and I doubt it will be while there are major disagreements on the direction the church has taken since vatican II. And, I don’t have a problem with that.

But I disagree with your comment about the sacraments. They obviously celebrate all the sacraments and I believe them to be valid, for reasons that someone more qualified and knowledgeable than me should explain. (And probably in a separate thread??)

In any case, I credit the SSPX with my finding the faith, with most certainly turning my life around, possibly even saving my life and at least giving me a chance to save my soul. I am happy to be actively attending a SSPX parish and be surrounded with mostly very good & pious people, & priests, all simply trying to live a good & pious Catholic life. As they say, you can judge a tree by its fruit.

May God bless you & my best wishes go with you.
They do celebrate all Sacraments however - just because they celebrate Sacraments does not make them licit. Rome has not given them permission to celebrate certain Sacraments. You can feel free to check the apologists threads on here as well as statements from Rome if you do not believe me. But I find it funny that you a man that states very frequently that he is not a theologian chooses to discount Romes theologians, CAF apologists, and well everyone but only SSPX policy. Hmmm. Funny but don’t the Anglicans also celebrate Sacraments that are valid but not licit as well. (And yes that is the exact definition since the ordinations are valid but not licit.)
 
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ProVobis:
Apostolicae Curae says not valid. And no Apostolic Succession.
Thank you for the correction - it is worse than I thought. Do you have the link.

Apostolicae Curae applies to the Anglicans.

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm
 
They do celebrate all Sacraments however - just because they celebrate Sacraments does not make them licit. Rome has not given them permission to celebrate certain Sacraments. You can feel free to check the apologists threads on here as well as statements from Rome if you do not believe me. But I find it funny that you a man that states very frequently that he is not a theologian chooses to discount Romes theologians, CAF apologists, and well everyone but only SSPX policy. Hmmm. Funny but don’t the Anglicans also celebrate Sacraments that are valid but not licit as well. (And yes that is the exact definition since the ordinations are valid but not licit.)
This seems to be a thread on this very same question.
 
I suppose I fall into the category of SSPX “convert” to Rome.

I grew up post-Vatican II, and attended a normal parish. My father is a convert, but my mom is a cradle Catholic and knows the Latin Mass (TLM) from her childhood. I began to take an interest in this in my late teens, as I was dissatisfied with what I perceived as the wishy-washiness of Catholicism in my parish, and the banality of the liturgy. I was discovering a new world in books - Marian and Eucharistic devotions especially - which did not exist in my parish. I found the liturgy flat, pedestrian and often “gimmicky”. Catholic life had eroded in my diocese - the majority of schools had closed, and religious life was dying . I was young, angry, wanted to assert my identity so when I came across the SSPX, now in my first year at university, I embraced it. This was it! Unapologetic Catholicism, and the TLM too! I lapped it up, and read everything I could lay my hands on about the subject. In retrospect, the warm welcome I received from the community, and the sense of “we few, we happy few, we band of brothers” and of being a small, persecuted group crusading for truth and reverence, was quite heady too.

What was more, I met devout Catholics with big families, who were serious about their faith - something lacking, I felt, in my parish. My parents were unhappy with my move, but I was hooked - a honeymoon period with the SSPX followed.

I ended up courting the lovely daughter of a large family of staunch SSPX traditionalists. She is now my wife and the wonderful mother of my four young children. So I have the SSPX to thank for her!!

My estrangement from the SSPX began a few years ago. I was increasingly put off by certain subcultural tendencies in our chapel, which I felt were probably similar all over - eg, obsession over skirts; excessive rigorism; a holier-than-thou mentality; a “negative” outlook on everything; cynicism and love of conspiracy theories; far right sympathies and a “them and us” mentality, a sectarian, cultish spirit - the SSPX right or wrong, or the SSPX can do no wrong, all outside are Protestants, even pagans, the exceptions are just that, exceptions, and if only they knew about us they would follow us. Failure to support the SSPX was seen as evidence of ones ignorance, moral cowardice, doctrinal deviance or malice.

In fairness, not all SSPXers exhibit these tendencies, and those that do, do so in different degrees. Most are decent pious people, not much different from other folk, other than, on average, more conservative socially and more devout. I have met some wonderful people, truly exemplary Catholics, charitable and kind and count them among my friends. But…the cultishness and going to extremes, and so on, and the mistrust of the mainstream, are undoubtedly there as a sufficient subcultural tendency that it is a problem.

This all got me thinking. Then came Pope Benedict XVI’s motu proprio on the TLM and we began to have (low key) “regular” TLMs in our diocese. Now our chapel only has Sunday Mass twice a month; the SSPX advises people not to attend the Novus Ordo, but attend the chapel for Rosary on “Mass-less” Sundays. What to do? Some went to the “regular” Tridentine Mass when available, others refused to do so, saying it would be a “danger to their faith” to attend the Tridentine Mass of a priest who also says the Novus Ordo. We have had big arguments in our chapel about this, with the SSPX priests themselves ranging from the ambivalent, to the downright “anti” people attending other Masses. The bias has been very much to the latter.

All of this got me questioning the SSPX position.

However, my wife is really SSPX raised, and while she is happy to attend non-SSPX Tridentine Masses on a Sunday, when they are available (the priest says them when he can, and times them to co-incide with Mass-less Sundays at the chapel), she is unwilling to cut ties with the SSPX. She doesn’t agree that they are wrong, and the fact that Rome now says we may attend the SSPX Masses as long as we don’t imbibe a schismatic mentality, and it is not a sin to go to them, makes reasoning with her hard - it seems unnecessary, or at least less urgent, to cut ties and all the trauma and family conflict that will cause, when even Rome says it’s not a sin to go and we can fulfil our Sunday obligation there. She hasn’t attended the Novus Ordo since she was a child, other than an ordination and the first Mass of a family member, which was a big culture shock for her. Prospects for a stable, regular Tridentine Mass said by the “regular” priest are not very good - he doesn’t have the full support of his community (he belongs to an order/society of apostolic life) let alone the bishop, and is very busy, and so the Masses have generally been very low key and attended by only a small group and they mostly from the SSPX chapel.

Now I attend the SSPX with my wife and kids when they have Mass; we attend the regular TLM when it is available. When there is no TLM I attend the parish of the TLM-saying priest, which is the most orthodox parish available. I go on my own, as my wife won’t attend, and doesn’t want our kids to be confused by attending two very different Masses, especially one she views as detrimental and irreverent.

So we have a complex situation. I don’t support the SSPX any more, though I am symapthetic to many of their concerns, and pray for their return to full communion. However, given the years of separation and the subculture and ideology that has grown up around them, this will be a tough and long road, and one which many will be unwilling to travel. Too many people have been brainwashed by their rhetoric. Thankfully, by no means all are, and their presence makes my attending the chapel still a tolerable experience. There are some very sensible, balanced people, still attending SSPX Masses, and they make me feel less of an “outsider” now that I no longer go along with the SSPX ideology.
 
Mitch, thanks for this very detailed summary of your experience.
I was increasingly put off by certain subcultural tendencies in our chapel, which I felt were probably similar all over - eg, obsession over skirts; excessive rigorism; a holier-than-thou mentality; a “negative” outlook on everything; cynicism and love of conspiracy theories; far right sympathies and a “them and us” mentality, a sectarian, cultish spirit - the SSPX right or wrong, or the SSPX can do no wrong, all outside are Protestants, even pagans, the exceptions are just that, exceptions, and if only they knew about us they would follow us. Failure to support the SSPX was seen as evidence of ones ignorance, moral cowardice, doctrinal deviance or malice.
That is an interesting point. I did encounter that from the “hardliners” in one visit. I see it as a protective mechanism. If a group is not going to be fully in communion with Rome, the only thing to do is focus on why that is; otherwise, why not join with Rome?

It is certainly a tendency one should be aware of.
 
My husband was an SSPX member for years before we married. We still have friends who attend. When we married and I could not leave the Pope, he agreed because he saw that there were many splintering groups from SSPX. It seems that if the SSPX church is around long enough there will be one or more new churches pop up that are not even SSPX, but maybe Pius the V society or an independent church.

I find that the people who are in the Traditional movement to be pious and wonderful people but they are not in obedience to the Church. To me they are Protesting just like the Protestants, the only difference is their bishops are probably valid but still illicit so the True Presence is probably in their Tabernacles.

Most diocese have a Latin Mass available, if you can compromise and all attend that Mass, maybe he will meet other former SSPX members, who can help him. I would also recommend you contact the priests fro The Fraternity of St. Peter (An order who only says Latin Mass, established by Blessed John Paul II) They also may be able to elp you and your family. We attended the approved Latin Mass for years and honestly miss it, but due to our schedule we go to our local parish now. Also find a conservative parish to attend in which there is Adoration, stations and other Traditional practices to help your husbands transition if you cannot find a close Latin Mass

Good Luck You will be in my prayers
 
I ended up courting the lovely daughter of a large family of staunch SSPX traditionalists. She is now my wife and the wonderful mother of my four young children. So I have the SSPX to thank for her!!

My estrangement from the SSPX began a few years ago. I was increasingly put off by certain subcultural tendencies in our chapel, which I felt were probably similar all over - eg, obsession over skirts; excessive rigorism; a holier-than-thou mentality; a “negative” outlook on everything; cynicism and love of conspiracy theories; far right sympathies and a “them and us” mentality, a sectarian, cultish spirit - the SSPX right or wrong, or the SSPX can do no wrong, all outside are Protestants, even pagans, the exceptions are just that, exceptions, and if only they knew about us they would follow us. Failure to support the SSPX was seen as evidence of ones ignorance, moral cowardice, doctrinal deviance or malice.

In fairness, not all SSPXers exhibit these tendencies, and those that do, do so in different degrees. Most are decent pious people, not much different from other folk, other than, on average, more conservative socially and more devout. I have met some wonderful people, truly exemplary Catholics, charitable and kind and count them among my friends. But…the cultishness and going to extremes, and so on, and the mistrust of the mainstream, are undoubtedly there as a sufficient subcultural tendency that it is a problem.

This all got me thinking. Then came Pope Benedict XVI’s motu proprio on the TLM and we began to have (low key) “regular” TLMs in our diocese. Now our chapel only has Sunday Mass twice a month; the SSPX advises people not to attend the Novus Ordo, but attend the chapel for Rosary on “Mass-less” Sundays. What to do? Some went to the “regular” Tridentine Mass when available, others refused to do so, saying it would be a “danger to their faith” to attend the Tridentine Mass of a priest who also says the Novus Ordo. We have had big arguments in our chapel about this, with the SSPX priests themselves ranging from the ambivalent, to the downright “anti” people attending other Masses. The bias has been very much to the latter.

All of this got me questioning the SSPX position.

However, my wife is really SSPX raised, and while she is happy to attend non-SSPX Tridentine Masses on a Sunday, when they are available (the priest says them when he can, and times them to co-incide with Mass-less Sundays at the chapel), she is unwilling to cut ties with the SSPX. She doesn’t agree that they are wrong, and the fact that Rome now says we may attend the SSPX Masses as long as we don’t imbibe a schismatic mentality, and it is not a sin to go to them, makes reasoning with her hard - it seems unnecessary, or at least less urgent, to cut ties and all the trauma and family conflict that will cause, when even Rome says it’s not a sin to go and we can fulfil our Sunday obligation there. She hasn’t attended the Novus Ordo since she was a child, other than an ordination and the first Mass of a family member, which was a big culture shock for her. Prospects for a stable, regular Tridentine Mass said by the “regular” priest are not very good - he doesn’t have the full support of his community (he belongs to an order/society of apostolic life) let alone the bishop, and is very busy, and so the Masses have generally been very low key and attended by only a small group and they mostly from the SSPX chapel.

Now I attend the SSPX with my wife and kids when they have Mass; we attend the regular TLM when it is available. When there is no TLM I attend the parish of the TLM-saying priest, which is the most orthodox parish available. I go on my own, as my wife won’t attend, and doesn’t want our kids to be confused by attending two very different Masses, especially one she views as detrimental and irreverent.

So we have a complex situation. I don’t support the SSPX any more, though I am symapthetic to many of their concerns, and pray for their return to full communion. However, given the years of separation and the subculture and ideology that has grown up around them, this will be a tough and long road, and one which many will be unwilling to travel. Too many people have been brainwashed by their rhetoric. Thankfully, by no means all are, and their presence makes my attending the chapel still a tolerable experience. There are some very sensible, balanced people, still attending SSPX Masses, and they make me feel less of an “outsider” now that I no longer go along with the SSPX ideology.

Yes – I agree–there is a cultish mentality growing within the SSPX. As to women and pants–in one “Trad” site --a woman said her SSPX priest told them—it was a mortal sin for a woman to wear pants. This came up in a thread where they were discussing one of Bishop Williamson’s letters–where he stated that the Faith/Church— and I believe even society would not be restored until women stopped wearing pants and returned to wearing dresses/skirts only.
 
But I disagree with your comment about the sacraments. They obviously celebrate all the sacraments and I believe them to be valid, for reasons that someone more qualified and knowledgeable than me should explain. (And probably in a separate thread??)
Well no one can answer that question here without risking their membership since CAF has decided posting anything explaining the SSPX positions on the matter is considered “proselytizing”.
 
the sense of “we few, we happy few, we band of brothers” and of being a small, persecuted group crusading for truth and reverence, was quite heady too.
I miss that and have not been able to find it in my parish. Let me clarify: I do not mean that I miss being a “small, persecuted group” but I do miss the banding together and the closeness that I found there.

I agree that there is an extremely cultish behavior there that has worsened the past few years.

Also, St. Thomas Aquinas has this to say which may be of interest:
…those who receive the sacraments from those who are cut off from the Church, do not receive grace, because they sin in so doing, except in case of Baptism, which, in cases of necessity, may be received even from one who is excommunicated.
 
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