Hi reggieM,
Ah yes, I had forgotten about that comment. You have your answer, in that case …
Now, are you going to provide some? Or are you going to continue to bellyache over whether my supposed definition of “science” is correct?
Let’s try again. Here’s what I said before:
So, you compared the kind of evidence science uses with the evidence of reasoning. My questions to you were about how you proved what the true nature of science is. The point here is that you accept the definition and nature of your own philosophical structure (scientism, or metaphysical naturalism) based on authority of non-scientific proofs. Do you accept the same for the arguments in favor of the existence of God? It didn’t seem so because you said “Good, same as science”.
Please note that this is not about whether your definition of science is correct. If you don’t understand what I said, feel free to ask and I will explain it further.
Let’s review this other discussion also …
Reggie M: I would ask in reply however:
What use is it for a student to believe that his teacher will help him to succeed when thus far all he has done is fail? What use is it to trust your coach who says that some day you could run a mile when today you can only run a half a mile? What use is it for a man to think that his wife loves him when today she didn’t answer the phone?
Marcus Red Quote:
These questions all have good, obvious answers. Asking what is the use of believing prayers will be granted if you can’t rely on it is of a different type.
Reggie M:
I would like to hear more about the good, obvious answers to the questions I posed. Second, isn’t it true that requests of parents, coach, instructors, loved-ones are not granted? Additionally, what about the millions of people who attest that their prayers were answered? I can say myself that my prayers have been answered and many gifts granted to me by God.
So, I was wondering how you answered those questions. Instead, you talked about the lottery but I referred you to human communication.
Engaging with people in a personal way involves being straightforward, honest and fair. If what you say were true then when I asked God a question I would get a straightforward, honest and fair answer. I don’t believe that your God has ever done any such thing.
If you asked God a question … well, it depends on the question and how you ask it. If your question is not straightfoward, honest and fair – then it doesn’t deserve an answer. I asked you several questions that were straightfoward, honest and fair – and you answered none of them. Thus, should I conclude that you do not exist?
You say that God has never answered a prayer – or are you saying your own prayers to God? Because many testify that God does answer prayer.
Even if you do a “petitionary prayer” you get no answer. If the answer is “no” then you just have to wait until you die for the thing not to happen, and then you know. There is never an actual “no” answer, that would be too straightforward. If you get the thing you petitioned for then of course you can dance about and claim that God granted your prayer.
You’re right to say that petitionary prayer is limited. But even still, if you get what you petitioned for, it’s good to be happy and thankful. But it’s really important to understand the reason why we ask God for something. When God does not grant the request, He is trying to teach us something about ourselves and the request itself. We want something and pray for it – then it doesn’t arrive. Why did we want it? For some reason that we have. Was that a good reason? Maybe yes, we think it was. Why didn’t God grant that request? Does he want us to become atheists and give up faith? That can’t be right. So, we have to explore. We have to ask God to reveal Himself, and then we wait, prepare and watch and hope and pray.
God is subtle and very quiet. You have wanted God to be “straighforward” – but that assumes you can look eye-to-eye with God. Can you? God is all good, all pure, all perfect and all innocence. Even the greatest, holiest persons hesitated to demand a direct response from God. It takes a lot of humility (understanding the truth about yourself), purity and courage to do what you suggest. God is quiet because He is drawing us out of ourselves. It is a search - an adventure. It’s finding a “pearl of great price”. Well, pearls don’t just wash up on the beach every day. You have to work to find them – that’s why they’re rare and precious.
God is precious also – a treasure that we can all find. But a pure treasure is not to be trampled on or tossed away or treated rudely. We seek with patience, silence and reverence – and then catch a glimpse and preserve it. Keep praying and another, better glimpse comes to us. Some saints saw heaven almost continually – taking the same path, little-by-little.
There comes a time when the contention becomes so patently absurd that one has to cut one’s losses and move on. There is only a limited time in this life to investigate nonsense. If I spent all my time investigating Catholic nonsense there would be no time left to investigate Islamic nonsense, Buddhist nonsense or homoeopathic nonsense.
You’re judging it as “nonsense” before investigating.
This is an argument that Christianity is true? Are you serious?
Actually, this thread is about arguments against atheism, so you’re not on-topic.
