Any way to save the Catholic Church in Europe?

[PetraG]

I get frustrated when the Ireland of the past is held up as an Oasis of Catholicism. There are some authors (e.g. Martin Malachi…I hope he is at peace) that wanted to return to that.

Good grief, the first time I read that, I misread and thought you’d written Malachy McCourt, LOL!!
I felt sure that was by no means his view on the matter, and then I realized he’s not even dead yet!!

 

[godisgood77]

Rosaries. Lots of Rosaries. Mass intentions. Prayers to Saints.

Those are good things to be sure… too often the efforts stop with prayer. The Church needs more physical action in order to recover… I recommend reading Rerum Novarum… maybe the most important papal encyclical in the last 150 years for the answers to the Church’s current situation

 

[Constantin]

As a Catholic in Europe, I agree we are in terrible shape. We can definitely need some help - prayers and encouragement. But we are still here, and we are still more than one would think. More importantly, we have the Lord’s promise
from the very end of Matthew. So don’t bury European Catholicism quite yet. We are not yet done for.

 

[KevinK]

Speaking of providing proof for statements, what is your proof regarding success rates for STM and NFP among illiterate Hindus?

 

[mythbuster1]

Historically, the life expectancy of a democracy or republic is 200 years, with its end typically coming as a result of widespread immorality and loose fiscal policy which supports it. When a free nation falls in this manner, freedom is generally lost for the lifetime of the people who lost it, but it may result in the rekindling of faith.

 

[mythbuster1]

That’s true. The problem is that people don’t learn from history: if the scandals had not been covered up, and instead the offenders made to do public penance, the Church would have been spared the worst of the chastisement.

 

[prayerrider]

The light still flickers in Romania, Hungary and Poland.

 

[mythbuster1]

What if we only ordained married men to the priesthood after their children are grown?

 

[mythbuster1]

The stress factor could be offset by there simply being more priests if married men can be ordained, but yes, it would be quite expensive.

 

[phil19034]

All the excuses and arguments against it usually boil down to finances… But the Orthodox married clergy seem to he able to survive just fine. If they can, why can’t we?

Its more than fiances, its logistics too.

The Eastern Churches (whether Orthodox or Catholic) typically have smaller parishes than Roman Rite Catholics do. They also typically have 1 priest per parish in diocesan ran parishes - making it easy for a family to live in the rectory.

Everything in the Eastern Churches was built around married diocesan clergy. From parish size to the way the seminary curriculum is set up, everything has been built around this.

If the Catholic church wanted to make this the norm for Roman Rite parishes, it will be a major logistical nightmare for many years.

From housing issues to total revamp of seminary curriculum. Each diocese would have to plan and implement married clergy once they were ready. It would be logical mess if the whole Latin Church or an entire national bishop’s conference tried to implement this all at once.

So while it technically could be done; I think (1) it’s far more difficult than many people think, (2) it won’t solve all the issues people think a married clergy will fix, and (3) it will introduce different problems we currently do not have.

Finally, there are several very good reasons why many married priests (if not most) say a married priesthood would be a mistake for the Roman Rite in most dioceses today.

 

[phil19034]

What if we only ordained married men to the priesthood after their children are grown?

I’m not sure. Perhaps if they are only part time priests with full time jobs (similar to the Perm Deacons).

But I’m not sure if I like this idea. I also fear it would have an unintended side effect of most men with a call to the priesthood following this route.

This is why I think the best course of action would be to ordain select men as priests from the Perm Deacon ranks.

In other words, all married men who want to become priests would first become a Deacon for X number of years. Then, if their bishop agrees that they have a calling to the priesthood, they would be ordained.

Essentially, you would replace the “permanent diaconate” with just a “diaconate.”

Celibate men would only have to serve as deacons for 1 year before becoming priests. Married men would have to serve as deacons for X number of years before becoming priests.

Reasons:

1. this would insure that the married man can balance his ministry with this family
2. this would all the married man who cannot go though the traditional priestly formation “on the job training” in order to make up for the formation he didn’t receive in traditional seminary
3. this would allow the celibate clergy to still go though the same seminary structure that exists today, and allow a program for married clergy that would not disrupt their family.
4. this would also limit the number of men who feel a strong call to the priesthood from putting off their call to the priesthood until they were married.

 

[FranciscoN2001]

But then you can go to
Luke 21:24
“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
Romans 11:11
“Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.”
What exactly could this mean? Could the Israelites claim it for themselves by taking salvation back from the Gentiles or could it mean they could get salvation in the same way as the Gentiles? My belief is on the second option

 

[ServusDei1]

When we bring back burning at the stake >

 

[mythbuster1]

Jewish priests were priests year-round, but they only served in the Temple five weeks out of the year, spending the rest of the time as teachers of the Law, judges in religious matters, and overseeing local rituals.

 

[Inthedarknight]

The apostasy started before the scandals broke but stem from the same root causes. We all have the Truth in the depth of our hearts, even if those who try to ignore it know they’re being lied to or are participating in the lie, eventually living a counter-truth is self-destructive. The sad thing is people chose and continue to choose to walk away rather than seek out and fight for the Truth.

 

[phil19034]

Jewish priests were priests year-round, but they only served in the Temple five weeks out of the year, spending the rest of the time as teachers of the Law, judges in religious matters, and overseeing local rituals.

Sure, but I don’t see what this has to do with our current situation.

I’m not concerned with Theological issues, because those are the easy ones. For me, it’s the logistical issues that are most concerning

 

[jack63]

I’m not concerned with Theological issues, because those are the easy ones. For me, it’s the logistical issues that are most concerning

If the Catholic church wanted to make this the norm for Roman Rite parishes, it will be a major logistical nightmare for many years.

From housing issues to total revamp of seminary curriculum.

Relating to allowing married men to be ordained, I just don’t agree on this at least for Europe. With so few seminarians in Europe, discussing changing curriculum and logistics in seminaries and parishes is a moot point. The only logistic that seminaries and churches will have to face if there are more married priests is that they will need to remain open. There are countless articles on this that can be googled…a couple…

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...-priest-ordinations-plummets-to-new-low-96548

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/pope-ireland-visit-1.4798478

In Ireland the article mentions 600 seminarians in Ireland in the 1960s…today the number is 25.

Widespread missionary work by African and Asia priests in Europe won’t fix this. The problem is simply too big.

 

[steve-b]

Even the most traditional of Catholic countries like France have terribly high declining rates of Catholicism. It seems people are pushing away the Good News of Christ in favor of secularism. This case is really sad because the Catholic Church is essentially the foundation of European civilization and now there’s only a few countries left that even have over 50% of the population claiming to be Catholic, let alone the percentages of regular Mass attendance

looking at the letters of Paul and who they are written to and why they are written… Same stuff going on THEN as now and all the eras in between… No need for Paul to stress persevering till the end if persevering to the end wasn’t an issue of concern for the whole human race, .

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

I’m not concerned with Theological issues, because those are the easy ones. For me, it’s the logistical issues that are most concerning

If the Catholic church wanted to make this the norm for Roman Rite parishes, it will be a major logistical nightmare for many years.

From housing issues to total revamp of seminary curriculum.

Relating to allowing married men to be ordained, I just don’t agree on this at least for Europe. With so few seminarians in Europe, discussing changing curriculum and logistics in seminaries and parishes is a moot point. The only logistic that seminaries and churches will have to face if there are more married priests is that they will need to remain open. There are countless articles on this that can be googled…a couple…

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...-priest-ordinations-plummets-to-new-low-96548

Church scandals, rapid secularization colour 1st papal visit to Ireland in nearly 40 years | CBC News

In Ireland the article mentions 600 seminarians in Ireland in the 1960s…today the number is 25.

Widespread missionary work by African and Asia priests in Europe won’t fix this. The problem is simply too big.

Married clergy isn’t going to fix this.

The problem is that many of the seminaries in Europe are filled with dissenters.

There are many stories of major seminary abuse in Europe that make McCarrick seem like child’s play.

Married seminarians are not going to solve the problem if dissent Seminaries kick them out.

The first thing that must happen is to clean up the seminaries.

I recommend Michael Rose’s good Goodbye Good Men. While most the book focuses on US Seminaries, he does address issues in a few Western European seminaries.

https://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Good-Men-Liberals-Corruption/dp/1621574261/ref=nodl_

Goodbye! Good Men: How Catholic Seminaries Turned Away Two Generations of Vocations From the Priesthood Amazon.com: Goodbye! Good Men: How Catholic Seminaries Turned Away Two Generations of Vocations From the Priesthood (9780967637112): Rose, Michael S.: Books

 

[jack63]

Married clergy isn’t going to fix this.

I honestly believe married catholic priests will not fix all or even most of the catholic church’s problems. However, I think they’d be great allies to you…many moderate to conservative men who love their faith. They could be part of the solution.

I skimmed through the books you recommended…I’m an American of pretty recent Irish decent. I at least know where you are coming from though. For Europeans, perhaps you need to approach this differently and with different arguments. They are a truly liberal group. I try to avoid talking about politics to my Irish relatives like the plague. I mean I think I’m a moderate that leans progressive, and my Irish relatives think I’m reactionary.