Anybody have the time to help me refute this

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BelFarfalla said:
Where did you get this? If you addressed each topic, it would take some time. Do you really want to spend that time?

Do you think that there is turth in any of it? If you do, then perhaps those are the topics that you should address first.

If you want to addres it… which one topic do you want to hit first?

I
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If left unchallenged, it may lead others, who do not know much about the Catholic Church, to believe that it is true.

As for where I got it, I believe the CAF board rules forbid us posting links to other discussion boards.
 
JoeyWarren said:
What is the current state?

Well allow me to change what you have wrote because it fits the non-Catholic Christian as well:

To be a “good American”, as it is defined by our culture, is to be “tolerant” of other belief systems, and to maintain a level of secularism that is above your Faith. The only true non-Catholic Christian form of government is a government that is instituted or approved of by Denomination that holds the Majority in and of itself

As a whole, who are currently more tolerant of other Faiths?

Catholics or non-Catholic Christians?

My answer is non-Catholic Christians. I could point to non-Catholic Christian forums and show the hatred and bigotry and prejudice against other faiths.
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What? I’m sorry I don’t understand your point.

I think the point others are trying to make (correct me if I’m wrong) is that as Catholics we profess to believe in the One, Holy, Catholic (universal) Church, so to say, “Well, Ya know your faith is as good as my Faith,” is denying what you believe as a Catholic. We live in a Country that places tolerance of just about everything above this truth. The tolerance of religion, sexuality, the “right to choose”. Some of these things are directly contrary to our Faith.
 
Sir_Knight said:
If left unchallenged, it may lead others, who do not know much about the Catholic Church, to believe that it is true.

As for where I got it, I believe the CAF board rules forbid us posting links to other discussion boards.
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OK, so this is something that was posted on anthother discussion board. I agree that it if unanswered people will think it is true. The problem with it is that it covers so many topics it will take forever to refute. Is the discussion over there on this still on going?
 
Still going on and I’ve used some of the replies given. Thanks for the assistance.
 
JoeyWarren said:
As a whole, who are currently more tolerant of other Faiths?

Catholics or non-Catholic Christians?

My answer is **non-**Catholic Christians. I could point to non-Catholic Christian forums and show the hatred and bigotry and prejudice against other faiths.
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Joey did you botch this?

Didn’t you mean that Catholics are more tolerant?
 
The Catholic Church was the first to complain about the birth of the American Nation.
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Can this person provide historical evidence of this?
Since the time of George Washington, the Catholic Church has strived to wrest the American government from Washington by placing people in key positions.
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Can this person provide historical evidence of this?
The secret societies of the Ivy League universities (Especially the Order of Skull and Bones at Yale) were created by the Vatican for that purpose.
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Can one ounce of proof be found? George Bush is a member of this. Is this person saying that George Bush is a closet Catholic?
The Federal Reserve, a cartel of private bankers controlled by the international bankers controlled in turn by the Vatican Bank, wrested America’s finances from the Treasury during the Wilson Administration.
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Can someone provide documentation showing a paper trail to prove this?
Hence the huge debt America is saddled with.
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Mere speculation.
Call me a bigot, or a conspiracy theorist if you want.
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Yes I will and it will be the truth.
All I’m doing is just answering your question. And to do that I have to tell you the whole brutal truth. And you need to keep an open mind here, because it’s not uncommon to confuse bigotry with candor.
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Not when the Candor comes from an ignorant mind and an overactive imagination. Maybe you should write a novel like Dan Brown.
To begin with, the Vatican City is a nation same as the United States of America. It has a flag, a government and a constitution.
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A nation? Maybe. A constitution? You mean the text book called the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”? A flag? Yes, but so do a lot of denominations.
As a Catholic, you are a citizen of two countries. You have two flags, two constitutions and two loyalties. And if you are a good and faithful Catholic, your first loyalty is to Pope Benedict XVI, not to President George W. Bush.
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Well a Catholic’s first loyalty is to God. Second loyalty may be to the Church that was established by our Lord Jesus Christ. Then the Presidency of the United States. This is similar to your own loyalty in which you should have first loyalty to God, then your local Church and then the Presidency.
 
#8 Atemi said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic_Hammer forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Here’s the simple truth: America was founded on principals that go against Catholicism. One can not be a “good American” and a Catholic at the same time, that is true.

LOL.

Thank you for the Catholic truth. It is very difficult to get most Catholics to understand or accept this reality.

I pray that every American and Christian could read these words and understand this reality. This way it would be understood why decent Americans dare not vote for a faithful Catholic to high office. To declare such a position as bigotry does not do justice to the reality it stands upon.

Thank you for clearing it up.
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Uh,… since the basic idea of the founding of the US was that the people, based on whatever they wanted, could overthrow the “government” when it failed to serve the people, then EVERY US CITIZEN has SOME “authority” greater than the government.

Since that’s true,… why is the authority that a US citizen gives to the Catholic Church, which is limited to what the Magisterium pronounces (faith and morals), any less a legitimate authority than any other authority of any other US citizen.

What am I missing here, Atemi…? 🙂

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
In other words if the Pope tells you to collaborate with Beijing and your President tells you that it’s treason to do so, you would ignore the President and collaborate with the Chinese government.
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First of all I have 100% confidence that the Pope would not ask us to collaborate with Beijing. Catholics are imprisoned by Chinese scum for practiciing our faith. I beleive if ignorant Protestants gained control of our government, they would imprison us Catholics. King George Bush would be one more probable to collaborate with Beijing.
If you were faced with such a choice, would you choose to be executed by lethal injection in a federal prison for treason or butchered by the Holy Inquisition at a top secret facility somewhere unknown for heresy?
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If you were faced with a similar choice, would you bow down to King George Bush or would you suffer lethal injectioin?
And it has actually happened in history. Sir Thomas More, a member of the court of King Henry VIII, was faced with the same dilemma. Prior to the separation of the Church of England from Rome, he said he had no problem serving two masters (The King and the Pope). The Bible says you cannot serve two masters.
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Just like you have no problem serving 2 masters as well. You serve God and you serve George Bush. But Moore’s context was of Moore serving his faith and serving King Henry.
The fact of the matter is that when the King entered into conflict with the Pope, Sir Thomas More was forced to choose between one loyalty or the other, either way would cost him his life. Sir Thomas chose the Pope and consequently was prosecuted for treason and beheaded. For laying down his life for the Pope, he was later canonized. And he is now St. Thomas More.
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Not a hard choice here. He had to serve either the True Church(Roman Catholic Church) or serve the False Church(Church of England)
Had he chose to serve the King, he would have been made an earl, and subsequently made a duke and would then fall foul of the Inquisition and be burned at the stake for heresy.
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Death either way. The choice is easy.
History shows that the Catholic Church has tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of people around the world for over 1500 years.
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Please cite some historical statements with some scholarship. What History will show is that individuals tortured people not a church. Protestants did their fair share torturing Catholics.
The Catholic Church has also been responsible for the gruesome practice of digging up the remains of the deceased and putting them on trial and executing them.
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Oh Please cite a source with credible scholarship.
The Catholic Church was also responsible for World War I and II and the Russian Revolution. The Concordat that was signed by Germany in 1933 made Roman Catholicism the only lawful religion in Nazi Germany, which is why six million Jews went to the gas chambers in addition to countless other Baptists, Lutherans, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons and Pentecostal Christians in addition to Gypsies and other minority groups. By rights, Pope Pius XII, the Jesuit General and several others in the College of Cardinals should have been in Nuremburg facing the War Crimes tribunals. It is no accident that the oath taken by Hitler’s SS was virtually identical to the oath taken by the Jesuits. It is no accident that Hitler described Reichsfuhrer Himmler as his own Saint Ignatius De Loyola.
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Complete nonsense. Catholics were sent to the camps as well.
The same vile laws that existed then still exist today. And the Catholic Church only tolerates the American way of life because it is in no position to destroy it. The Catholic Church is still feared by kings, presidents and dictators to this day, especially in the South American countries where it still has a great deal of political clout. They still maintain lists of people in the parishes and those who miss Mass on Sunday are still questioned by the Parish Priest.
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Complete nonsense.
 
**It is no accident that the oath taken by Hitler’s SS was virtually identical to the oath taken by the Jesuits. **

The ‘Jesuits Oath’ is also some times passed around and the ‘Knights of Columbus Oath’. It was fabricated/forged in the 1800’s for the express purpose of causing hate and mistrust towards Catholics. Here is some information of where it came from. Interestingly, one of the sources of it is the Congressional Record of the USA. But it is there because it was a fraud, not because it is true. But this distinction does not matter to those who want to hurt the CC. They know that most people will never look for the truth.

Debunking the Jesuits oath……
geocities.com/okc_catholic/articles/jesuit_oath.html

· Ask the person who is making this claim to produce the actual Jesuits oath, if one even exists from the Vatican or Jesuits archives… directly from the archives as these are the only legitimate source.

· Ask him to produce the oaths taken by both the Jesuits and Hitler’s SS.

· Since the Jesuits’ Oath is a forgery, what does it mater is Hitler’s SS used it as a basis of their oath? Does anyone even have a copy of the SS Oath? I mean the real one, not one off some flaming web site? If indeed the similarities are glaring, since when is an author responsible for the manner in which a plagiarist uses the stolen material. Plagiarism is a crime. Are the victims of a crime responsible for how a thief uses the stolen goods? Further how are the Jesuits or the CC responsible for the SS plagiarizing a forged document?

· Remind people that all, even the CC is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Until they can provide actual proof, not false documents, they are making false accusations.
 
There is so much garbage in there that it wouldn’t be worth your time to refute it all.

But here is an interesting tidbit:
Poland, although a Catholic country was at the top of Nazi Germany’s hit list because of its tolerance toward Jews.
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On the contrary, pre-1939 Poland was extremely anti-Semitic and in fact there were Jewish people who cheered the Nazi invasion when it first took place. Literally, they stood beside the road and cheered as German soldiers and panzers went in to occupy Poland.

They figured that no one could be more atrocious than the Polish government, but they were very wrong. And indeed the Nazis found very willing Polish people to assist them in rounding up Jewish people. (That is not to say there weren’t some very brave Poles who resisted and also helped the Jews as well, there certainly were!).

But the statement is completely false. The Polish Government was not tolerant in any way. In fact, Eastern European governments were not really known for their tolerance.
 
the pope is a spiritual leader, not a temporal one (the existence of the vatican notwithstanding). following the Bible, we must render unto caesar what is caesar’s …

most of what is in that original essay is unadulterated nonsense but the above point seems to be the main issue that the writer (deliberately) gets wrong.
 
His “history” of The Unseen Hand by A. Ralph Epperson suffers from the flaw of not being able to verifly it, nor can one falsifly it.

If you ask him to verifly or prove his history, he will appeal to books that those in the John Birch Society love. But, those books really don’t prove his case, they simply restate what he believes to be true.

If you point out flaws in his details, in his mind you are falling for the front that those groups put out as history.

His mind is made up and unless God breaks in, you are not every likely to get through to him.

Your best bet is ignore his conspiracy theories and present other truths that you are aware of, someday maybe reality will break in on him.
 
I was presented with the following …
You asked for some scholarly evidence, please read these books.
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Most of these books are out of print but are readable online. Others are back in print through different publishers.
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Also, watch the documentary “Sex Crimes and the Vatican”. This documentary is from the BBC, a source that has international credibility.
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I had a thread refuting the so-called Jesuit Oath on my old board, cannot access it now (or possibly any more.) But for the record, anything can be read into the Congressional Record.

These Natavist conspiracy kooks try to make Catholics disloyal to the USA because we recognize the Papacy. But what about the apostles, especially Peter and Paul, who wrote letters to Churches in other parts of the world? See 1 Peter 1:1 (to all strangers scattered through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia…") There is NOTHING in scripture prohibiting Church authority from crossing borders. That is strictly a development in Protestant Nationalism.

These kooks overlook that all Christians have two loyalties: to Ceaser and to God.

The main thing, though, is that these guys are so far gone in their own propaganda that they cannot be reached. Their hatred of Christ’s Church is extreme. All one can do is attempt to refute their (mostly) unfounded allegations. Unfortunately, the Protestant mind-set is genetically predisposed to accept uncritically virtually any allegation against the Catholic Church - no matter how outrageous on its face.

They are not Christian and one should not recognize them as such in the least.
 
This guy employs a shotgun approach, basically pelting you with alot of “facts” from different places, spun in different ways all basically trying to make you look foolish because you cannot refute it all in one breath. Most often they themselves havent done the research into the sources and citations and want you to do their homework for them. I came across this a few times, most notably when I went to a young earth creationism presentation and they would try this tactic with “facts” they had read in a quick ‘fact tract’.

But I try to never dismiss claims out of hand even if they are ludicrous. I went through your (his) link called “The Vatican’s Holocaust”, which im assuming is a take on a document recently (99 or 2000 I think) release called “The Vatican and the Holocaust”, im still reading it and ill let you know what I think after I’m done.
 
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