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WillieWonka
Guest
Can you cite the catechism entry that says ensoulment takes place at conception?
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royal_archer
Guest
Yes.Can you cite the catechism entry that says ensoulment takes place at conception?
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Timbothefiveth
Guest
WW, even if ensoulment didn’t take place at conception, the church has said that life must be protected even at conception, and that abortion is evil. So even if they don’t know if it has a soul at concpetion, they still know you can’t kill it.
For clarification, I don’t believe it takes place at one month. I was using that as an example because after one month I didn’t think you’d have any doubt it has a soul. I believe it has a soul much, much earlier.I agree the Church doesn’t teach against the notion that ensoulment takes place at one month
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WillieWonka
Guest
OK. Will you post those catechism items saying ensoulment takes place at conception so we can see what you refer to?Yes.
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Eddie_Mac
Guest
You still have not publicly proclaimed your stance. This would help us understand why you are so stuck on this ensoulment debate.Sorry. I don’t understand. Can you elaborate?
If you are pro-life, it makes no difference.
If you are pro-death, destroyng a baby before you think ensoulment occurs justifies your murdering a baby.
Eddie Mac
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royal_archer
Guest
All this time you have been saying the church doesn’t teach that ensoulment takes place at conception and you haven’t read the catechism?OK. Will you post those catechism items saying ensoulment takes place at conception so we can see what you refer to?
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WillieWonka
Guest
The catechism does not state ensoulment takes place at conception, so there is really nothing to post.All this time you have been saying the church doesn’t teach that ensoulment takes place at conception and you haven’t read the catechism?
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WillieWonka
Guest
Church teachings can be determined without recourse to any individual’s personal positions.You still have not publicly proclaimed your stance. This would help us understand why you are so stuck on this ensoulment debate.
If you are pro-life, it makes no difference.
If you are pro-death, destroyng a baby before you think ensoulment occurs justifies your murdering a baby.
Eddie Mac
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royal_archer
Guest
"Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. "The catechism does not state ensoulment takes place at conception, so there is really nothing to post.
Enough with the quibling and enough with the false representation.
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FanChan
Guest
Perhaps, but figuring out what you’re trying to say about abortion through all of this would be a lot easier to deduce if we knew precisely where you stood. Since you’re never going to tell us straight out what that connection is.Church teachings can be determined without recourse to any individual’s personal positions.
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WillieWonka
Guest
That doesn’t say when ensoulment takes place. It says one is destined from conception, but as the Sacred Congregation teaches, that does not mean ensoulment take splace at conception. So, the SC certainly didn’t contradict the catechism. Those guys are far too smart to do that. What they have done is construct a seamless teaching that is consistent through both catchism and SC doctrines."Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. "
Enough with the quibling and enough with the false representation.
Here’s an interesting exerpt from article on the topic.
*"They often suppose that the Catholic Church teaches that destroying human embryos is unacceptable because such embryos are persons (or are “ensouled”). While it is true that the Church teaches that the intentional and direct destruction of human embryos is always immoral, it would be incorrect to conclude that the Church teaches that zygotes (a single-cell embryo) or other early-stage embryos are persons, or that they already have immortal, rational souls. The magisterium of the Church has never definitively stated when the ensoulment of the human embryo takes place. It remains an open question. The Declaration on Procured Abortion from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1974 phrases the matter with considerable precision: *
**“This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation [implantation in the uterus]. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent.” **
catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0116.htm
Here is the full paragraph from from the Sacred Congregation from which the above was quoted. I have bolded the text the above author omitted. I figure the full text gives a bit more context.
"19. This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent for two reasons: (1) supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul in which the nature received from parents is completed, (2) on the other hand, it suffices that this presence of the soul be probable (and one can never prove the contrary) in order that the taking of life involve accepting the risk of killing a man, not only waiting for, but already in possession of his soul."vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
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FanChan
Guest
Do you have a point beyond what you’ve already stated a few dozen times? If ensoulment doesn’t happen at conception, then what?That doesn’t say when ensoulment takes place. It says one is destined from conception, but as the sacred Congregation teaches, that does not mean ensoulment take splace at conception.
Here’s an interesting article on the topic.
*"They often suppose that the Catholic Church teaches that destroying human embryos is unacceptable because such embryos are persons (or are “ensouled”). While it is true that the Church teaches that the intentional and direct destruction of human embryos is always immoral, it would be incorrect to conclude that the Church teaches that zygotes (a single-cell embryo) or other early-stage embryos are persons, or that they already have immortal, rational souls. The magisterium of the Church has never definitively stated when the ensoulment of the human embryo takes place. It remains an open question. The Declaration on Procured Abortion from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1974 phrases the matter with considerable precision: *
**“This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation [implantation in the uterus]. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent.” **
catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0116.htm
Here is the full paragraph from from the sacred Congregation from which the above was quoted. I have bolded the text the above author omitted. I figure the full text gives a bit more context.
"19. This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent for two reasons: (1) supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul in which the nature received from parents is completed, (2) on the other hand, it suffices that this presence of the soul be probable (and one can never prove the contrary) in order that the taking of life involve accepting the risk of killing a man, not only waiting for, but already in possession of his soul."vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
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royal_archer
Guest
Can you provide a reference for any legitimate authority on the topic that agrees with yourThat doesn’t say when ensoulment takes place. It says one is destined from conception, but as the Sacred Congregation teaches, that does not mean ensoulment take splace at conception. So, the SC certainly didn’t contradict the catechism. Those guys are far too smart to do that. What they have done is construct a seamless teaching that is consistent through both catchism and SC doctrines.
Here’s an interesting exerpt from article on the topic.
*"They often suppose that the Catholic Church teaches that destroying human embryos is unacceptable because such embryos are persons (or are “ensouled”). While it is true that the Church teaches that the intentional and direct destruction of human embryos is always immoral, it would be incorrect to conclude that the Church teaches that zygotes (a single-cell embryo) or other early-stage embryos are persons, or that they already have immortal, rational souls. The magisterium of the Church has never definitively stated when the ensoulment of the human embryo takes place. It remains an open question. The Declaration on Procured Abortion from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1974 phrases the matter with considerable precision: *
**“This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation [implantation in the uterus]. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent.” **
catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0116.htm
Here is the full paragraph from from the Sacred Congregation from which the above was quoted. I have bolded the text the above author omitted. I figure the full text gives a bit more context.
"19. This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent for two reasons: (1) supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul in which the nature received from parents is completed, (2) on the other hand, it suffices that this presence of the soul be probable (and one can never prove the contrary) in order that the taking of life involve accepting the risk of killing a man, not only waiting for, but already in possession of his soul."vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
interpretation?
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WillieWonka
Guest
Sure. Here’s a link toCan you provide a reference for any legitimate authority on the topic that agrees with your
interpretation?
On Procured Abortion
by Sacred Congregation
endorsed by Pope Paul VI
1974
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
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royal_archer
Guest
You have interpreted a document in a way not supported by the remainder of the text of the document and in direct conflict with the Catechism. and are trying to use this to refute the Churches position. And your support for your novel interpretation is the document itself?Sure. Here’s a link to
On Procured Abortion
by Sacred Congregation
endorsed by Pope Paul VI
1974
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
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WillieWonka
Guest
See para 19 of the end notes. There is no need for interpretation. The text says nothing about the timing of ensoulment. It is very clear. The notion is not novel. It has a long tradition within the Church.You have interpreted a document in a way not supported by the remainder of the text of the document and in direct conflict with the Catechism. and are trying to use this to refute the Churches position. And your support for your novel interpretation is the document itself?
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Robert_Bay
Guest
**1703 **Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul, the human person is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake.” From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.
**1711 **Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (*GS *15 § 2).
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Thread closed, over 1000 posts
**1711 **Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (*GS *15 § 2).
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Thread closed, over 1000 posts
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