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josie_L
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So youâre not close to converting to Catholicism but youâre getting there.Nope.
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Zundrah
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âŚI think that most of the protestants on this site wish to be catholic secretly, other wise they wouldnât be on CAF would they? Maybe there is more hope then we think! Letâs keep praying.So youâre not close to converting to Catholicism but youâre getting there.
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Carlan
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Hersychios, I believe you are posting in the wrong forum, the title of this forum isâ Anyone close to converting to Catholicismâ , perhaps an Apologetics forum would suit you better.:shrug:CarlanExcept that Origin does not have the same presuppositions a modern Roman Catholic has.
Knowing what a nice person you are, I could call you immaculate.
To Orthodox, Mary was sinless, thus the term immaculate (meaning âno Macculaâ) is not an improper one.
If you donât sin, you could be immaculate too!
Of course, you might say that you have a propensity to sin as part of your nature, you just fight it as best you can. No Orthodox Christian could argue that about you.
What the new (IC) dogma states is that she was conceived immaculate. That can be taken in two ways:
If she was predestined to a special state of holiness beyond any other person, then her fiat was not a free choice and the rest of us have no hope of doing likewise. This seems to be the Latin position, based more or less on the notion of total depravity of the human condition. This notion seems to have begun with the convert Tertullian, and been more fully developed by a later convert called Augustine.
- All persons are conceived immaculate, and she is just one of many
- This one person was predestined to a special state at one remove from the rest of humanity
That should resonate with Calvinists.
But the western notion of a depraved state of humankind also compels the church to recognize that all non-Christians, non-baptized babies and aborted fetuses go to hell. This is a horrific thought.
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"The most Holy Roman Church ****firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, ****not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels⌠**
Bull Cantate Domino Eugene IV, Bishop of Rome 1442
Thus, some western Catholics have postulated another state of being for innocent babes called the âlimbo of the Infantsâ, which means they âdo not suffer, but are denied the Beatific Visionâ.
Pope John Paul II, after reflecting on the incredible number of abortions thought that perhaps limbo was an unfair sentence to innocent babes. Then the whole Limbo dust-up reveals to us that Limbo was never a real doctrine of the church, that the church ânever taught Limboâ, which is incorrect, because the Magisterium actually did teach this without the benefit of an Ex Cathedra statement, nor a Conciliar statement. The idea grew organically through the church.
Limbo was taught with the same or perhaps even greater conviction than the Immaculate Conception idea was taught before 1854AD. And there is enough evidence of that to proclaim it a dogma Ex Cathedra if the Pope wanted too.
But it is looking like an embarrassment.
The Latin Churchâs default position (if Limbo goes away), is the damnation of the innocent. Pope John Paul II actually had a âhopeâ for these poor innocent ones that quite frankly mirrors Orthodox ideas, but is new for the west. In 2007AD, under Pope Benedict the International Theological Commission issued a statement on the matter.]
Long ago, western Christians realized that such a depraved state of being is unacceptable for the little Palestinian Jewish girl who was destined to be the Mother of God. So the theory of an âimmaculateâ conception began to circulate, again organically, through the areas of the church which embraced the human depravity concept of Augustine. It is really a bug fix ( a theoretical patch) over a crack in the western theological construct of Original Sin, just like Limbus Infantum was a bug fix for the same problem.
Holy Orthodoxy recognizes that all are born with âconcupiscenceâ, the propensity to sin. But the Orthodox do not see any person exempt from this, we all just fight this part of our nature as best we can.
Ditto for Saint Mary of Nazareth, we feel that she did a great job! :clapping:
To us, she is heroic.
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DD2007
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Not guilty on both counts.So youâre not close to converting to Catholicism but youâre getting there.
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waynie11
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Hi. Iâm effectively a Quaker, though not a confirmed member. Iâm an ex-Baptist.
Quakers are similar to Catholics in that they donât believe in Sola Scriptura doctrine, but for very different reason. I enjoy the high level of study and sophistication and depth there is in Catholicism in contrast to the DIY religion of many Protestants.
I was in Italy many years ago and saw the Vatican and was quite moved I must admit.
I donât think Iâm that close, but I often defend Catholics from attacks by Protestants, does that count for something?
I just want to say Catholics are really great, and I wish them all well. Hopefully I wonât go to hell for never being Catholic! I would rather follow what my conscience and heart tell me than join a religion just to âbe safeâ. Can you understand that feeling?
Quakers are similar to Catholics in that they donât believe in Sola Scriptura doctrine, but for very different reason. I enjoy the high level of study and sophistication and depth there is in Catholicism in contrast to the DIY religion of many Protestants.
I was in Italy many years ago and saw the Vatican and was quite moved I must admit.
I donât think Iâm that close, but I often defend Catholics from attacks by Protestants, does that count for something?
I just want to say Catholics are really great, and I wish them all well. Hopefully I wonât go to hell for never being Catholic! I would rather follow what my conscience and heart tell me than join a religion just to âbe safeâ. Can you understand that feeling?
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Carlan
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God bless you Waynie, Keep your mind and heart open. Trust God to lead you in the right direction, He will.l:thumbsup:Carlan
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Roy5
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WAYNIE11 - QUAKERISM
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While I'm not a Quaker, I love the Society of Friends. I am not a Quaker for several reasons. Perhaps most important I don't live anywhere near a Quaker meeting. But I also need a little more ceremony, not much certainly, but at least a couple good hymns. I once did attend a Quaker Meeting when I lived (years ago) in the Philadelphia area. One thing I disliked there: two or three people seem to get up at about the same time each Sunday and sound off. I suspect that they were sincere, fine men, but I could become a bit annoyed. Somehow it seemed too scripted.
I especially like three things about Quakerism that seem diametrically opposed to Catholicism: (1) the service is simple without a lot of vestments, paramounts, prayerbook liturgy, etc - and no required liturgy comes down from on high as in the CC; (2) theologically individual Quakers seem quite free to believe as they feel led; and (3) each congregation is run democratically by the parishioners. On top of all that, I admire the Quaker peace testimony and its strong egalitarian emphasis, which a hierarchial religion does not have.
But God loves all his children, of every creed, color and country. May religion serve as a bridge and not a barrier.
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DD2007
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Carlan
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DD, I think you are very rude and I do not believe you are interested in this forum,âAnyone close to converting to Catholicismâ? I canât tell if it is immaturity or actual rudeness really, but I would like to see some respect. Thank you!:hmm CarlanLove the oats dude.
Sorry, I couldnât resist.
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DD2007
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Hesychios
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No. I am in the right place.
I would not be on this thread at all except that a person called Angel7 on post #12 wanted to show that Holy Orthodoxy is somehow inferior to Latin Catholicism. I had hoped at the time I cleared that up.
I had to demonstrate that her comparison was flawed, but needed had to show that Orthodoxy was to be dismissed as defective.
One thing I cannot abide by is someone making a drive-by on the Orthodox church.
Then of course, other people along the way throw out red herrings to try an make the thread go this way and that. If that doesnât work they ask me cute little questions about what I think of Latin Catholicism. What do I do⌠answer or ignore them? These people want to draw me into little side fights about their saints and practices, which for the most part are of no interest to me and hold no fascination for me. They want to make a big deal about these side issues and bring the subjects up, perhaps to discredit me.
I sometimes think some apologists for the Latin Catholic church are (to an extent) embarrassed by Holy Orthodoxy, and wish we would have gone away a long time ago, because their claims to uniqueness are shared by us, their arguments to antiquity support us, and we still exist to witness the truth as we always have.
Frankly, if we had disappeared a long time ago (under the Mongols, the Arabs, the Turks, the Crusaders, the plague, the Communists or what have you), their job would be much easier today, they would have an Apostolic monopoly and modern inquirers would be none the wiser. Historically, the Latin church has used force to try to overwhelm and absorb our church, but they never fully succeeded. They just snatched little bits here and there, which are more or less paraded out like trophies these days. They have switched on the charm lately, and for that we are grateful (it is much easier to deal with a smiling visitor than a scowling one), but our message has not changed and we are not for sale. Orthodoxy remains what it has always been.
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I hardly ever get involved in a thread this way unless someone takes an unreasonable whack at the Orthodox. I have neither the time nor the energy to do this properly and at this point in my life, I have other more important concerns.
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Carlan
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Well alright hesychios,but I have never run into an Orthodox before who felt so much resentment to ward the Latin Church, forgive me , but you do rather sound like one bitter fallen away Catholic. Could that be possible?
Forgive me if I am mistaken. Carlan
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Hesychios
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Bitter? Heck no!Well alright hesychios,but I have never run into an Orthodox before who felt so much resentment to ward the Latin Church, forgive me , but you do rather sound like one bitter fallen away Catholic. Could that be possible?
I buried both my parents in the church, and raised three children in the church.
I just gave my grandson a New Jerusalem Bible with a Catholic Bible Study Handbook.
I have no bitterness at all. But I will be bluntly honest, when someone is slinging hash I will point it out.
It seems to me that these days some Latin Catholics* want* to see an âex-Catholicâ as bitter, so they can dismiss what he says out of hand. It has become a defense mechanism.
But it would be better if they at least listened to these people, there is a lot to learn from them.
For myself, I do not qualify as an ex-Catholic, nor do any Orthodox, because the Orthodox church has always been Catholic as well as Orthodox. Holy Orthodoxy complements Latin Catholicism, and Holy Orthodoxy completes Catholicism. So the only description that applies is a fulfilled Catholic, which is exactly how I feel.
I am grateful for my Latin Catholic upbringing, it has helped me in my Orthodoxy.
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Gofer
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Christ is not divided, others have done the dividing, yet better to be on the side of Christ⌠âSo be it, until there is no enemy, but peaceâ.
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Christ_Imitator
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Whatâs the biggest difference between Orthodoxy and Catholocism?
In my opinion Orthodoxy is probabaly the best form of Christianity out there.
âSorry Catholics, just what I think. I donât know a whole lot about them though, so I donât know if Iâd join an Orthodox Church ever or not?
âIâm looking towards United Bretheran/Mennonite, or something like that.
In my opinion Orthodoxy is probabaly the best form of Christianity out there.
âSorry Catholics, just what I think. I donât know a whole lot about them though, so I donât know if Iâd join an Orthodox Church ever or not?
âIâm looking towards United Bretheran/Mennonite, or something like that.
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JJHIII
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I am seriously considering Catholicism. I probably would be now however iâm under 18 and must honor my father and mother. No questions at this time. All have, so far, been answered.
To Christ Imitator -
Naturally I would point you in the direction of Catholicism but if you are more closely considering Protestantism, take a look at the Churches of Christ. They are ânon-denominational.â And as far as i can tell, they are the only truly Sola Scriptura church. They speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where the Bible is silent.
For instance-
They believe in a necessity of baptism, at the age of reason. They reject the idea of sola fide. They reject predestination, reject once-saved-always-saved, and following the âNew Testament patternâ they reject the idea of instruments in worship and prefer a cappela. Addmitance to the church is based on confession of faith, repentance, and baptism by immersion. They practice weekly communion where the bread and grape juice are purely symbolic, this is the only practice that I think is obviously debunked in scripture.
Im not condoning them as correct over Catholicism but I think its truly the best Prtoestant, or the closest adherer to sola scriptura, church.
Just some thoughts
To Christ Imitator -
Naturally I would point you in the direction of Catholicism but if you are more closely considering Protestantism, take a look at the Churches of Christ. They are ânon-denominational.â And as far as i can tell, they are the only truly Sola Scriptura church. They speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where the Bible is silent.
For instance-
They believe in a necessity of baptism, at the age of reason. They reject the idea of sola fide. They reject predestination, reject once-saved-always-saved, and following the âNew Testament patternâ they reject the idea of instruments in worship and prefer a cappela. Addmitance to the church is based on confession of faith, repentance, and baptism by immersion. They practice weekly communion where the bread and grape juice are purely symbolic, this is the only practice that I think is obviously debunked in scripture.
Im not condoning them as correct over Catholicism but I think its truly the best Prtoestant, or the closest adherer to sola scriptura, church.
Just some thoughts
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Christ_Imitator
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Whatâs wrong with instruments in church.
People are using their God given talents to prasie the Lord.
Also, just wanted to ad this: I know of at least five different families in my Church that are ex-Catholics. Apparently they have discovered that the teachings of the (Biblical) Protestant Church are correct, and not the Catholic Church.
âIâm wasnât saying Catholics are not Biblical, because that wouldn be false. I was saying that some so-called âprotestantâ Churches are not.
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Hesychios
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This was also true of Latin (Roman) Catholicism at one time. Gregorian chant dates from that era.
It is still true of much of Orthodoxy, although I know that in the last century some Greeks in the USA have installed organs.
Still, in Orthodoxy the human voice is the preferred instrument of praise.
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Bill_Pick
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Both Good Church but remember the Cathloic Was the one that Our Lord started,I will build My Church
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JJHIII
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I am in full agreeance with you on this matter. If you have a God given talent then you should use it. However, like I said, they âspeak only where the bible speaks.â The New Testament doesnât authorize us to use instruments. Neither does it forbid them. To the Churches of Christ, it is just a matter of being better safe than sorry. They take that stance on a lot of issuseWhatâs wrong with instruments in church.
People are using their God given talents to prasie the Lord.
Also, just wanted to ad this: I know of at least five different families in my Church that are ex-Catholics. Apparently they have discovered that the teachings of the (Biblical) Protestant Church are correct, and not the Catholic Church.
âIâm wasnât saying Catholics are not Biblical, because that wouldn be false. I was saying that some so-called âprotestantâ Churches are not.
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