Anyone Else Find Vatican II's Efforts for Ecumenism Ironic?

[dyspepsic]

Yahoo Education
Heretic - A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

Merriam-Webster
heretic
1: a dissenter from established religious dogma; especially: a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine

CCC 2089
Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same
How in the world do any of these definitions disagree with each other, with traditional Catholic teaching, or with the common everday understanding thereof?

DD

Hey Dad.

You have the Code. Read Canon 751. Heresy doesn’t apply to non-Catholics.

 

[dyspepsic]

Sorry, you are not clear here regarding which is the direct quote and which is not. I will look these source docs up when I can. Is it Et Unum Sint or Ut Unum Sint?

I find your definition of heretic to be simplistic. Are you saying Protestants are not, ipso facto, heretics?

Interestingly, Belloc considered Muslims to be heretics.

Non-Catholics are not heretics. See my post #137 below, and Canon 751 of the Code of Canon Law.

 

[DustinsDad]

Dustins Dad always attacks persons and personalities.

The attack on my person and personality is duly noted.

 

[dyspepsic]

I just have one question: Is your real name Walter Kasper? Tell the truth.

I’m still waitin on those documents of Cardinal Kasper.

You are all words and no action. Still waiting…oh hum…

 

[DustinsDad]

Non-Catholics are not heretics. See my post #137 below, and Canon 751 of the Code of Canon Law.

They cannot be “charged” with heresy under the Code of Canon Law, simply because they are cut off from the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church. The reality that they cling to and hold heretical teachings makes them heretics nonetheless - at the very least materially.

To say otherwise is to say truth is relative. Hello modernism, and goodbye sanity.

DD

 

[dyspepsic]

The attack on my person and personality is duly noted.

I am sure you will get even in due time.
More importantly did you look up the Code?
I expect you will come up with something like, “the Dictionary is more important than the Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church”, or jibberish like that…

The New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, under Canon 751, states: “Indeed, the terms heresy, apostacy, and schism are no longer used of those born and baptized outside the Catholic Church. The offenses can only be applied to Catholics, those baptised into the Catholic Church, or later received into it”.
page 915

 

[DustinsDad]

I am sure you will get even in due time.
More importantly did you look up the Code?
I expect you will come up with something like, “the Dictionary is more important than the Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church”, or jibberish like that…

Merely responding to what you wrote as “evidence” for your postion - and pointing out the errors therein.

DD

 

[pnewton]

of these definitions disagree with each other, with traditional Catholic teaching, or with the common everday understanding thereof?

According to the common English usage of the word, heresy only applies to those who are Catholic, not non-Catholics. Since the CCC applies it to a post-baptismal denial, that would** apply to all Christians**. That is the difference.

 

[DustinsDad]

According to the common English usage of the word, heresy only applies to those who are Catholic, not non-Catholics. Since the CCC applies it to a post-baptismal denial, that would** apply to all Christians**. That is the difference.

The dictionary defintions you provided did not say it was limited to only Roman Catholics. The MW said only that it especially applies to members of the Catholic Church.
*Yahoo Education
*Heretic - A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church
*Merriam-Webster
*heretic
1: a dissenter from established religious dogma; especially: a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine
DD

 

[dyspepsic]

The dictionary defintions you provided did not say it was limited to only Roman Catholics. The MW said only that it especially applies to members of the Catholic Church.
*Yahoo Education
*Heretic - A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church
*Merriam-Webster
*heretic
1: a dissenter from established religious dogma; especially: a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine
DD

 

[DustinsDad]

More importantly did you look up the Code?

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

The Code itself is authoritative - The New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law is not.

DD

 

[dyspepsic]

Since the CCC applies it to a post-baptismal denial, that would** apply to all Christians**. That is the difference.

WRONG. No, it is clear that the offenses of heresy, apostacy and schism are no longer used of those born and baptised outside the visible communion of the Catholic Church. The offenses can be applied only to Roman Catholics. (New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, pg 915)

 

[dyspepsic]

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

DD

And the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, commissioned by the Canon Law Society of America, Catholic University of America, Paulist Press, 1998, tells us what the Canon means. But are you unwilling to understand that?

 

[dyspepsic]

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

The Code itself is authoritative - The New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law is not.

DD

Okay, eat this:

Canon 11: “Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the sufficient use of reason, and unless the law expressly provided otherwise, have completed seven years of age”

All three conditions of the law must be met for ecclesiastical laws to bind: The person must 1) be a Catholic; 2) possess sufficient use of reason; and 3) be at least seven years of age, unless something else is specified in the law.

Heresy, Apostacy and Schism are crimes in Canon Law. You are not guilty of these crimes unless you fulfill the requirements under Canon 11.

The New Commentary applies. Where do you think every Canon lawyer in the United States is taught and educated in the law? they get their J.C.D. from Catholic University, from where the Commentary came.

Don’t be so unthinking, Dad. No other university in America provides this education, and degree. It can be granted only by a Pontifical Institute which C.U. is.

 

[DustinsDad]

And the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, commissioned by the Canon Law Society of America, Catholic University of America, Paulist Press, 1998, tells us what the Canon means.

The Commentary is not the Code. The Code is authoritative, the Commentary is not. They come from different sources. The Commentary, apparently according to reviews, is heterodox in many of its “comments” - and in this day an age, that should not surprise you.

Would you like some examples?

DD

 

[dyspepsic]

The Commentary is not the Code. The Code is authoritative, the Commentary is not. They come from different sources. The Commentary, apparently according to reviews, is heterodox in many of its “comments” - and in this day an age, that should not surprise you.

Would you like some examples?

DD

Sure, I would love some, after you digest Canon 11

I assure you that the Commentary on Canon 751 is not controversial, nor is canon 11.

 

[JReducation]

Sorry, you are not clear here regarding which is the direct quote and which is not. I will look these source docs up when I can. Is it Et Unum Sint or Ut Unum Sint?

I find your definition of heretic to be simplistic. Are you saying Protestants are not, ipso facto, heretics?

Interestingly, Belloc considered Muslims to be heretics.

That subscript is from the Concilum (ED).

Maybe Belloc does, but the Church does not. Canon 751 makes it clear that it’s only after Baptism.

JR

 

[DustinsDad]

Okay, eat this:

Canon 11: “Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the sufficient use of reason, and unless the law expressly provided otherwise, have completed seven years of age”

All three conditions of the law must be met for ecclesiastical laws to bind: The person must 1) be a Catholic; 2) possess sufficient use of reason; and 3) be at least seven years of age, unless something else is specified in the law.

Heresy, Apostacy and Schism are crimes in Canon Law. You are not guilty of these crimes unless you fulfill the requirements under Canon 11.

And this just goes back to what I said in post 144 -

They cannot be “charged” with heresy under the Code of Canon Law, simply because they are cut off from the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church. The reality that they cling to and hold heretical teachings makes them heretics nonetheless - at the very least materially.

To say otherwise is to say truth is relative. Hello modernism, and goodbye sanity.

In how the Code is applied to Catholics, sure. One couldn’t bring a protestant before ArchBishop Burke in St. Louis and excommunicate him/her for heresy - that is reserved for wayward catholics.

But the underlying reality that Protestants are at least mateial heretics and oftentimes formal heretics stands by the mere fact …the reality … that they hold as true hereitcal teachings that have been condemned by the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Facts is facts.

DD

 

[JReducation]

WRONG. No, it is clear that the offenses of heresy, apostacy and schism are no longer used of those born and baptised outside the visible communion of the Catholic Church. The offenses can be applied only to Roman Catholics. (New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, pg 915)

Your understanding is correct. The application is to those who are baptized within the Catholic Church.

If we pay special attention to all of the documents on Ecumenism, none of them use the term heretic when speaking of other Christians or non Christians. They are consistent. The term is either:

1. other ecclesial communities
2. the churches of the Reformation (lower case c, for Protestants)
3. Sister Churches (Orthodox)

and as far as others such as Jews and Muslims etc,

1. non Christians

Even Pope Benedict has been very careful in his use of the language, both as Cardinal Ratzinger and now as pope.

He applied schismatic to the actions of the SSPX, because they are Catholics

Even there, he uses the term to refer to their actions, not to the individuals. They are still considered to be Catholics. They are not being asked to renew their profession of faith, only to recognize what the Church asks of them.

Maybe that will come later, but I am not privy to that, so I’ll keep my mouth shut on that one.

JR

 

[pnewton]

WRONG. No, it is clear that the offenses of heresy, apostacy and schism are no longer used of those born and baptised outside the visible communion of the Catholic Church. The offenses can be applied only to Roman Catholics. (New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, pg 915)

Nothing in Canon Law applies to those outside the Catholic Church. And yet the CCC states:

CCC 2089
Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same

You should be slower to speak and quidker to listen or you would no that it was not me you shouted “WRONG” at but the CCC.