Anyone Else Find Vatican II's Efforts for Ecumenism Ironic?

[DustinsDad]

Yes, your posts have more hatred and sarcasm than anybody else’s. MULTO. MUCHO.

Could you point me to a few of the more “hate filled” posts…I’d like to see what in the world you are referring to. I could do the same for you if you like. It could be a very illuminating experience for the both of us. Feel free to PM me if you like, so as not to distract the thread.

It is true. We haven’t any statements from Sheen regarding Ecumenism. But, we don’t have any statements from him against. So what?

It was said that they existed.For example, here’s where it started:*JReducation: On Ecumenism he remembered what Bishop Fulton Sheen had preached and taught. “Ecumenism is not to bring all men to the same church, but to bring all men to Christ in whatever way Christ chooses to bring them. Ecumenism is a call to kneel together and pray for the Holy Spirit to help all of us to remember and undestand Christ’s message. Catholics and others have much to learn about Christ’s will for humanity. What happens after that, only Christ knows.” *
I think he and the brother should perhaps have heeded what the brother himself said next:JReducation: Brother said that we should not put words into Ecumenism that are not there or our own goals into it.
It looks terribly like that is exactly what was done - words put into Bishop Sheens’s mouth regarding ecumenism that no one can seem to trace…words meant to back up a particular view of what the goal of ecumenism is. All the while, Sheen’s actual words that I quoted are looked at (by you) in shock and horror - but why? He’s merely preaching what the Catholic Church preached and taught for centuries? Why is that so shocking to you?

Now if Bishop Sheen at some later date said what JR claimed, I’d like to see it. Truly I would. Unfortunately it doesn’t sound like anything I’ve ever heard come out of his mouth, especially this “Ecumenism is not to bring all men to the same church” alleged statement. The only way I wouldn’t be genuinely surprised by this statement is if it was uttered in a critique of the modern approach, rather than an enthusiastic embracing of it.

This whole angle of discussion of Bishop Sheen reminds me of the attempts to turn St. Francis into a modern day ecumenist - a peace loving hippie or some such thing more interested in “dialogueing” with the Sultan rather than someone who was zealous for Holy Mother Church, marching into the jaws of death to convert the Muslims to Holy Mother Church to save their souls (see here and here).

Is pointing this out “hate filled”? Hardly - it’s a genuine concern for historical truth. And while it’s not big “T” Truth, it’s still truth. And it’s serious business. We should not “tweak” history (or reputtions) in order to try and “win an argument.” Heed the words of Pope John XXIII:Anyone who consciously and wantonly attacks known truth, who arms himself with falsehood in his speech, his writings, or his conduct in order to attract and win over less learned men and to shape the inexperienced and impressionable minds of the young to his own way of thinking, takes advantage of the inexperience and innocence of others and engages in an altogether despicable business.
(AD PETRI CATHEDRAM, 11)
You might want to take such into consideration as well when accusing others of sedevacantism, schism, and being “hate filled.”

Now as a preemptive response to your forthcoming retort…if I see posts that look to be influenced by modernist thought, I’ll say so - but I’ll say so by pointing out where and how and why I see it, and I’ll use Church documents and such (with citations and sources) to back up my positions - and await a response. This is a discussion board after all - not a lecture circuit.

The 1932 and the 1965 Sheen were the same human being. That has nothing to do what he believed in 1932, and 1965. They could be entirely different, especially with Vat 2 intervening.

Well, I for one don’t go around quoting things someone “might” have said…especially when they are so contrary to the body of writing and speaking and preaching of the person in question…and then get so ruffled when someone asks for a source.

And if I’m seem to lack a little trust in the validity of such quotations that seem so incredulous - chalk it up to the “boy who cried wolf” phenomena. I think we’re a little beyond “take my word for it.” Unfortunately no doubt.

See ya,

DustinsDad

 

[Roy5]

When I read recently that a third of all Catholics in the USA have abandoned their faith - or that 10% of all Americans (30 million) are ex-Catholics - I wonder if time and effort might be better invested in winning lapsed Catholics back to the Church.
Most Protestants I know - and I know mainly liberal and not evangelical ones - are 'big tent' Protestants. That is, they eschew dogmatism and look for spiritual truth in all faiths, even non-Christian faiths. Their main problem with Catholicism is that they simply can't accept Papal infallibility, transubstantiation, priestly celibacy, immaculate conception, assumption of Mary, etc. They see Catholicism not so much a cult as a relic from medieval times with the ritual, robes, procession of cardinals, and the like. Many, for example, view the Papacy as a hangover from emperor worship in ancient Rome and often are turned off by the adulation afforded the Pope.

 

[I_Believe]

When I read recently that a third of all Catholics in the USA have abandoned their faith - or that 10% of all Americans (30 million) are ex-Catholics -** I wonder if time and effort might be better invested in winning lapsed Catholics back to the Church.**

I agree.

 

[HashemEchad]

When I read recently that a third of all Catholics in the USA have abandoned their faith - or that 10% of all Americans (30 million) are ex-Catholics - I wonder if time and effort might be better invested in winning lapsed Catholics back to the Church.

This makes sense to me too. Its Judaism’s position as well.

We do not spend any time trying to convert Gentiles to Judaism; we don’t believe they have to become Jews to achieve eternal life.

We only spend time leading Jews back to being religiously observant, because God gave the Jewish people a task to keep Torah, and when we don’t do it, God is displeased.

I think if religions spent their time trying to lead their own former members back, it would be better than trying to convert people who may well be very happy in their own religious faith.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Most Protestants I know - and I know mainly liberal and not evangelical ones - are 'big tent' Protestants. That is, they eschew dogmatism and look for spiritual truth in all faiths, even non-Christian faiths.

Sounds like most of our hierarchy. “We reject nothing that is true in other religions”. I always wish they would finish that sentence with “yet we reject the religions entirely because of the errors they contain”.

 

[HashemEchad]

Sounds like most of our hierarchy. “We reject nothing that is true in other religions”. I always wish they would finish that sentence with “yet we reject the religions entirely because of the errors they contain”.

Judaism does not reject the truth to be found in other religions, either. We recognize that every religion has some truth…but not enough to make us want to leave what we are and join another faith.

I greatly admire the Dalai Lama, and his philosophical beliefs…he is perhaps the one religious leader in the world I admire the most, in fact… but its not enough to make me want to become a Buddhist.

 

[Cat]

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years before coming home to the Catholic Church at the age of 47.

I certainly agree that the Catholic Church should work on winning back the lapsed Catholics.

But itt is my opinion that in the next ten years, you will see thousands, even millions, of Protestants come home to the Church of Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church, as they see their Protestant churches become less “Christian” and more “positive mental attitude.”

I think that the Catholic Church should spend that ten years getting ready for the vast insurgence of Protestants by tightening up their grip on dogma, emphasizing the Sacraments especially Eucharist, and training their people, especially their children and teenagers (who will be grownup in ten years) in their Catholic faith, including the Scriptures and Catechism. We should be increasing in holiness and waiting to welcome our brothers and sisters home!

Back in the late 1980s, my husband and I noticed that many Protestant churches, even evangelical churches, were doing less and less communion and baptism, and more and more aerobics classes and men’s fellowship breakfasts.

In the last Protestant church we attended, an Evangelical Free Church (Evangelical Free Church in America), we saw TWO baptismal services in seven years. And communion was held only a few times a year.

Less and less “Bible” is taught, and instead, the faithful hear messages about “happy marriages” and “managing money.” In that same E Free church, my daughter, who was a leader in the Youth Group, asked the Youth pastor if the group could study the Bible instead of always talking about music, dating, movies, and sex. He told her, “If we did a real “Bible Study,” no one would come to Youth Group.”

I swear this is true.

Eventually she walked out of the youth group, telling them that “when they get serious about God, call her.” (This is the same daughter who came into the Catholic Church a few weeks ago.)

They never called her.

I could go on and on with various trends in evangelical churches, but basically what’s happening is just like I said at the beginning of this post–less “Christian” and more “PMA.” For many Protestants, this is a confusing and disheartening time, and many are simply giving up on “church” and going to “home church” with their families.

It happened with the mainlines–they gave up the Gospel and began ordaining women and gays, promoting abortion and euthanasia, and now they’re lobbying for gay marriage. In the last 40 years, most mainlines demons have seen drastic declines in membership.

I think the same thing is happening in evangelical churches. Those megachurches may seem to be booming, but they’re all fluff and no stuff. It may be a great place to “find Jesus,” but it’s not a great place to “keep Jesus.”

My personal opinion is that this “decline” is occurring because of the fallacy of sola Scriptura and the lack of the Church leadership that Jesus appointed (the Pope and the Apostles). When people are free to interpret the Bible according to their individual leading (by the Holy Spirit, of course!), it is not surprising that people come up with some clever interpretations that justify sin and easy living.

Please, Lord, bring them home.

 

[pnewton]

When I read recently that a third of all Catholics in the USA have abandoned their faith - or that 10% of all Americans (30 million) are ex-Catholics - I wonder if time and effort might be better invested in winning lapsed Catholics back to the Church.

Like Cat, I am grateful for those who went beyond the lapsed Catholics; ministries like Catholic Answers that reached out with dialogue, not for conversion, but understanding. Only through the Catholic Church’s current approach to ecumenism am I Catholic today.

 

[dyspepsic]

You certainly have a lot of nerve throwing *that *accusation out at anyone here.

Sometimes, the truth hurts. Somebody needs a hug. The truth needs to be told. DD is a cynic.

 

[latinmasslover]

Sometimes, the truth hurts. Somebody needs a hug. The truth needs to be told. DD is a cynic.

Actually, after my week (year, in fact) a hug would be nice.:hug1:

My only point was that he is not the only one who has done it. The truth does hurt sometimes, but you’re just as guilty (as am I) of what you accused Dad of. Peace.

 

[pnewton]

Actually, after my week (year, in fact) a hug would be nice.:hug1:

My only point was that he is not the only one who has done it. The truth does hurt sometimes, but you’re just as guilty (as am I) of what you accused Dad of. Peace.

No can do on the internet. I will do the next best thing an pray and ask God to bless you this next week. For those who read this post, offer a prayer and ask God to bless this poster this week.

 

[latinmasslover]

No can do on the internet. I will do the next best thing an pray and ask God to bless you this next week. For those who read this post, offer a prayer and ask God to bless this poster this week.

Thanks