Anyone have statistics on annulments requested versus annulments granted?

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Thanks šŸ™‚ … It just always seems itonic that people try to use some bare statistic to prove some point when the statistic is barely related to the point they want to prove …

I studied engineering - statistics was never my strongest interest:blush: … but I think I must have absorbed far more then I thought at the time šŸ˜›
I know what you mean. I wound up going from machining into QA and learned a LOT about how useful - but dangerous - statistics can be and also how to read things carefully (and skeptically). I was never heavily into the ā€œstatsā€ aspect of the business but, like you, saw and absorbed enough to know that they must be looked at carefully and that they only point at something - they don’t prove anything.

Data and statistics are wonderful things so long as they are properly understood and used.

Peace
James
 
So after all of these annulments stating there never was a marriage in the first place, does that make any children in these non existing marriages illegitimate?

The status of the children is unaffected.

Besides - I don’t believe that the Church, or society for that matter, today much cares if a child is ā€œlegitimateā€ or not. Civilly I suppose there could be issues with inheritance etc, but these things are addressed by civil law and not church law.
The Children (if baptized Catholic) remain Catholic people regardless.
Truelight you have to realize you are probably getting a lot of answers from people that have received annulments. There is an obvious bias when speaking on this subject with people who have received them.
 
I think once you start implying that someone who has a different view is less than reasonably intelligent, and the thumbs up are flying left and right, it’s time to close the thread.

I hope all of you who suddenly apply the strictest discipline in statistical analysis are ready to do so in all the other threads.
In order that I might correct and/or improve myself, have I implied that someone else is less than reasonably intelligent?
Not trying to defend, but to clarify and, if necessary, explain/apologize

Peace
James
 
šŸ‘

Okay … there is an old adage "Statistics don’t lie but liars use statistics"

My understanding is that prior to 1968 fewer Catholics married outside the faith … and civil divorce carried a stigma … few people sought divorce … there was no idea of a ā€œno faultā€ divorce … there was always a need for serious ā€˜grounds’ to justify a civil divorce … and Desertion
was referred to a the poor man’s divorce … context …

So forge ahead … to today …

Many of those 27,000 annulments were decided on marriages that were contracted between two non catholics … many performed before a Justice of the peace … For example my first marriage is one that received a decree of nullity in 1996/97 [my first marriage - contracted between myself - a protestant and my former spouse a non baptized person - the wedding performed by a South Carolina Justice of the Peace]

For context - if one or two catholic persons contracted a marriage before a justice of the peace - later divorced and who then sought to get married in a Catholic ceremony would not need to obtain the annulment … yet I did … thus those divorced and remarrying catholic or catholics are not included in that 27,000 but the former marriage of two non catholics is …

So the 27,000 includes marriages which ended in divorce that were originally contracted between:

    • Two non Christian - Non-Catholics married civilly
    • One non Christian - One Non-Catholic Christian married civilly
    • Two non Christian - Non-Catholics married in a religious ceremony
    • One non Christian - One Non-Catholic Christian married in a religious ceremony
    • One non Christian - One Catholic Christian married in a religious ceremony with proper dispensation [could have been in a CC or some Denom]
    • One Christian - One Catholic Christian married in a religious ceremony with proper dispensation
    • Two Catholics married in a catholic ceremony
    And you think that a simple comparison between the number of annulments granted in 1968 to the number of annulments granted in 2006 is meaningful?

    Off the top of my head - the following basic information is needed for analysis [and probably much more]
    • What was the total number of marriages in the United States - by category- identified in 1-7 above in 2006?
    • In 2006, what was the number of civil divorces granted for each of those 7 categories?
    • By category - in 2006, how many of those individual categories were submitted to a Tribunal?
    • Of those sub categories submitted - what was the breakdown of those 27,000 annulments granted by category?
    This might tell you that the greatest number of annulments sought came for Category 1 - Two non Christian - Non-Catholics married civilly as opposed to Category 7 - Two Catholics married in a catholic ceremony …one should see a huge difference in the Sacramentality or potential of same between the two … or not :confused:

    Oh and I do not believe that prior to 1968 - the Church was deciding annulment cases between two non catholics as often as they are today

    Using the slight Okay … there is an old adage "Statistics don’t lie but liars use statistics. What’s that suppose to mean?

    Granted; I’m not a huge contender for fabricated statistics from a secular viewpoint or for cheap political advantage. Are you calling the Knights of Columbus compiled statistics a lie? The Catholic Church uses compiled statistics themselves.
 
Using the slight Okay … there is an old adage "Statistics don’t lie but liars use statistics. What’s that suppose to mean?

Granted; I’m not a huge contender for fabricated statistics from a secular viewpoint or for cheap political advantage. Are you calling the Knights of Columbus compiled statistics a lie? The Catholic Church uses compiled statistics themselves.
Statistics don’t lie - neither do they tell the truth…Statistics just ARE.

Statistics are useful tools when the parameters are properly chosen and the data carefully gathered. Statistics are useless if the parameters are NOT properly set or the date not carefully gathered. I’ve seen both kinds.
Do you have a link to these Knights of Columbus compiled Statistics? I’d love to take a look.

Please don’t let the one comment cause you to miss the rest of the very good post.

Peace
James
 
I work at a research center. Statistics can be found (or created) to say whatever you want them to say. Some of it has to do with how you set up the study.
 
Statistics don’t lie - neither do they tell the truth…Statistics just ARE.

Statistics are useful tools when the parameters are properly chosen and the data carefully gathered. Statistics are useless if the parameters are NOT properly set or the date not carefully gathered. I’ve seen both kinds.
Do you have a link to these Knights of Columbus compiled Statistics? I’d love to take a look.

Please don’t let the one comment cause you to miss the rest of the very good post.

Peace
James
kofc.org/un/en/resources/cis/cis301.pdf
 
So after all of these annulments stating there never was a marriage in the first place, does that make any children in these non existing marriages illegitimate? .
as has already been stated on this, and the other 5 or 6 concurrent thread on the same topic (this week, there were 5 or 6 last week, and the week before, and the weke before that) no, the status of the children is not affected.
 
Using the slight Okay … there is an old adage "Statistics don’t lie but liars use statistics. What’s that suppose to mean?

Granted; I’m not a huge contender for fabricated statistics from a secular viewpoint or for cheap political advantage. Are you calling the Knights of Columbus compiled statistics a lie? The Catholic Church uses compiled statistics themselves.
OK – Centuraianguard, I’ve had a chance to look at the link you provided. A lot of good information there, but I’m afraid there isn’t really much good or comprehensive in the way of ā€œstatisticsā€ in it.
I’m sure that their source is fine for they say that the stats were compiled by the Vatican, but lets look at what is really said here in the opening paragraph…

First it gives a raw number of, 49,233 cases for nullity completed in one year - 2006. It then goes on to say that more than 27,000 of those were in the US. Note here it does NOT say how many are granted, just how many are handled. So far so good, but then things begin to get dicey from a statistical viewpoint because we switch from number of cases to percentages…Quoting from the Article we have this:
this percentage of cases handled in the United States(fluctuating between 55 and 70 percent) has remained about the same over the past 30 years. This is an astronomical increase, for in 1968 only 338 annulments were granted in the United States.

OK, the percent of cases handled has remained ā€œabout the sameā€, over 30 years time.
What does this tell us about the number of annulments handled over those thirty years? Nothing. Was it 55% or 60 % of 100 cases or 1 million cases??? It doesn’t tell us what the raw numbers are and percentages by themselves give us no clue.
Then – after tossing out this percentage number it switches back to a raw number in the closing line. 338 annulments granted in 1968. Not how many handled in 1968, not what percentage of the total applied for, not even how this number relates to the total worldwide, which would tie the end of the paragraph back in with the beginning.

This is what we mean when we say that statistics can be misleading. When one first reads the paragraph one can easily get the impression that things are out of control. But when one takes the time to actually look at what is being said, one finds far more ā€œsmokeā€ than fire.
I’m not saying that that there isn’t a problem, but what I am saying is that the information supplied in that opening paragraph does nothing to actually enlighten the situation.

Now lets look at the second Paragraphā€¦ā€10 million divorced Catholics in Americaā€, terrible, but not a number that can be related to the earlier statistics. However, the next number is one that might shed some light. It says that the number is increasing by about 200,000 each year. That means that if the majority of those Catholics who divorce applied for an annulment the Tribunals should be handling far more than the 27,000 given in the first paragraph. They should be handling something in the range of 150,000 applications per year…So why aren’t they?
The answer to that question might shed some light on the matter…

Right after giving out the 200,000 number, the Article says this, ā€œHow can the Church give out so many annulmentsā€¦ā€, yet in all the numbers and percentages given thus far in the article, not one actually said how many were granted – except for the reference to 1968 that reference does not tell us how many applied.

So that is what we have in the opening paragraphs of the book. We then have to go all the way to page 18 (nearing the end of the book) to find some info on how many applications are actually granted.

According to the article, the numbers granted in 2006 are 82% world-wide and the 86% in the US. Certainly not an earth shattering difference in percentage points. In addition the article states that the numbers granted are significantly lower in marriages lasting more than 10 years.

About all we can really discern from all of this – and we have to really read carefully to see it – is that in 2006 (the only year that actual numbers are provided), there was something over 27,000 petitions (out of a possible 150,000 or so:shrug:) of which 86% (or 23,220) were granted.
That’s 23,220 decrees of nullity out of a pool of 200,000 Catholics getting divorced every year. That works out to be less than 12% of divorced Catholics receiving annulments.

So – from all of this, I could make the statement that, based on the information supplied, the Church grants annulments to something less than 12% of Catholics who get divorced in a single year.

That sounds quite a bit different than, ā€œ86% of annulment applications are approvedā€.

See what I mean about the need to actually look at the numbers, what they are, and how they are presented???

Sorry if I got a bit windy here…
Peace
James
 
One thing that has not been considered either is that in 1963 there was a large bar to someone getting annulment. They cost a lot more - they were a lot more inaccessble - and it just simply was not done. At least that was the impression. Talk to anyone from that generation and they will tell you. You needed money to even think about getting one. This is not true today, the process today has been opened up so that money is not a bar to the Sacraments. Now don’t get me wrong this might not have been the actual case but there was so much confusion and this was the permeating story that many did not bother. Remember that this was also right around the time of VII so there was a large gap between the laity and the priesthood. This was a scary subject to approach at all.
 
One thing that has not been considered either is that in 1963 there was a large bar to someone getting annulment. They cost a lot more - they were a lot more inaccessble - and it just simply was not done. At least that was the impression. Talk to anyone from that generation and they will tell you. You needed money to even think about getting one. This is not true today, the process today has been opened up so that money is not a bar to the Sacraments. Now don’t get me wrong this might not have been the actual case but there was so much confusion and this was the permeating story that many did not bother. Remember that this was also right around the time of VII so there was a large gap between the laity and the priesthood. This was a scary subject to approach at all.
hmm… Not so sure that it isn’t a lot of money part. I know mine was at least 2 to 3 times the cost of a no contest divorce. And as far as the ā€˜if you can’t pay, the Church will reduce or wave cost.’ Maybe not so much, they just take the fee in instalments but don’t reduce or wave anything.
I suppose it could change between countries so please keep in mind I am refering to the UK.
 
OK – Centuraianguard, I’ve had a chance to look at the link you provided. A lot of good information there, but I’m afraid there isn’t really much good or comprehensive in the way of ā€œstatisticsā€ in it.
I’m sure that their source is fine for they say that the stats were compiled by the Vatican, but lets look at what is really said here in the opening paragraph…

First it gives a raw number of, 49,233 cases for nullity completed in one year - 2006. It then goes on to say that more than 27,000 of those were in the US. Note here it does NOT say how many are granted, just how many are handled. So far so good, but then things begin to get dicey from a statistical viewpoint because we switch from number of cases to percentages…Quoting from the Article we have this:
this percentage of cases handled in the United States(fluctuating between 55 and 70 percent) has remained about the same over the past 30 years. This is an astronomical increase, for in 1968 only 338 annulments were granted in the United States.

OK, the percent of cases handled has remained ā€œabout the sameā€, over 30 years time.
What does this tell us about the number of annulments handled over those thirty years? Nothing. Was it 55% or 60 % of 100 cases or 1 million cases??? It doesn’t tell us what the raw numbers are and percentages by themselves give us no clue.
Then – after tossing out this percentage number it switches back to a raw number in the closing line. 338 annulments granted in 1968. Not how many handled in 1968, not what percentage of the total applied for, not even how this number relates to the total worldwide, which would tie the end of the paragraph back in with the beginning.

This is what we mean when we say that statistics can be misleading. When one first reads the paragraph one can easily get the impression that things are out of control. But when one takes the time to actually look at what is being said, one finds far more ā€œsmokeā€ than fire.
I’m not saying that that there isn’t a problem, but what I am saying is that the information supplied in that opening paragraph does nothing to actually enlighten the situation.

Now lets look at the second Paragraphā€¦ā€10 million divorced Catholics in Americaā€, terrible, but not a number that can be related to the earlier statistics. However, the next number is one that might shed some light. It says that the number is increasing by about 200,000 each year. That means that if the majority of those Catholics who divorce applied for an annulment the Tribunals should be handling far more than the 27,000 given in the first paragraph. They should be handling something in the range of 150,000 applications per year…So why aren’t they?
The answer to that question might shed some light on the matter…

Right after giving out the 200,000 number, the Article says this, ā€œHow can the Church give out so many annulmentsā€¦ā€, yet in all the numbers and percentages given thus far in the article, not one actually said how many were granted – except for the reference to 1968 that reference does not tell us how many applied.

So that is what we have in the opening paragraphs of the book. We then have to go all the way to page 18 (nearing the end of the book) to find some info on how many applications are actually granted.

According to the article, the numbers granted in 2006 are 82% world-wide and the 86% in the US. Certainly not an earth shattering difference in percentage points. In addition the article states that the numbers granted are significantly lower in marriages lasting more than 10 years.

About all we can really discern from all of this – and we have to really read carefully to see it – is that in 2006 (the only year that actual numbers are provided), there was something over 27,000 petitions (out of a possible 150,000 or so:shrug:) of which 86% (or 23,220) were granted.
That’s 23,220 decrees of nullity out of a pool of 200,000 Catholics getting divorced every year. That works out to be less than 12% of divorced Catholics receiving annulments.

So – from all of this, I could make the statement that, based on the information supplied, the Church grants annulments to something less than 12% of Catholics who get divorced in a single year.

That sounds quite a bit different than, ā€œ86% of annulment applications are approvedā€.

See what I mean about the need to actually look at the numbers, what they are, and how they are presented???

Sorry if I got a bit windy here…
Peace
James

Thanks for spelling this out more clearly. From the starting gate in the article it seems to be somewhat sensationalistic as if to capture attention without actually analyzing the fuller context. Given the fact the actual percentage of annulments granted are not foreclosed in the article has me asking why the article put forth all these numbers if it didn’t add a remarkable difference since 1968 given that there is information lacking about annulments actually granted. Though the article might seem somewhat redundant on the surface, are we to believe that there is in fact an Annulment Crisis in the Western Catholic Church given the fact information is lacking. I certainly don’t pretend to hide the fact there are serious marriage problems in the Catholic Church. The Church is only a witness to the sacrament of marriage with the Bride and Groom giving the sacrament to themselves.
Perhaps their is a lack on the effective delivery of catechesis in the Church and/or how it is received by the laity that creates a gross lack of commitment from spouses resulting in a breakdown in marriages.
 
In 1968 not only were tribunals less accessible, it was a whole lot harder to get a divorce! It’s not so hard to get a divorce on paper these days, but it still tends to impoverish mothers and children, and I cna’t imagine how hard it would be to end up a single mom in the 60s, with probably less education and definitely less pay. Even if one did have grounds for a divorce, the social and economic consequences were terrible.
 
Thanks for spelling this out more clearly. From the starting gate in the article it seems to be somewhat sensationalistic as if to capture attention without actually analyzing the fuller context. Given the fact the actual percentage of annulments granted are not foreclosed in the article has me asking why the article put forth all these numbers if it didn’t add a remarkable difference since 1968 given that there is information lacking about annulments actually granted. Though the article might seem somewhat redundant on the surface, are we to believe that there is in fact an Annulment Crisis in the Western Catholic Church given the fact information is lacking. I certainly don’t pretend to hide the fact there are serious marriage problems in the Catholic Church. The Church is only a witness to the sacrament of marriage with the Bride and Groom giving the sacrament to themselves.
Perhaps their is a lack on the effective delivery of catechesis in the Church and/or how it is received by the laity that creates a gross lack of commitment from spouses resulting in a breakdown in marriages.
I think that the enlarged part is the really big question and observation.

The number of annulments granted IS a pointer to a much deeper problem (the ā€œroot causeā€).
So rather than point to some large number of annulments granted, what needs to be examined is what are the causes that have led to this number of annulments granted.

YADA, in her post above that led us into our present conversation points out a number of different possibilities for breaking down the numbers to get better information.
In addition, if one is to compare present day annulments approved against those of 40 or more years ago, one needs to look at various historical differences. This too has been alluded to.

I would love to see an article or paper that really seeks to look at all the different aspects of the annulment issue and breaks down the numbers into illuminative components so that we could actually carry on a useful dialogue.
Without good and comprehensive data, we just wind up spinning our wheelsā€¦šŸ¤·

Peace
James
 
In 1968 not only were tribunals less accessible, it was a whole lot harder to get a divorce! It’s not so hard to get a divorce on paper these days, but it still tends to impoverish mothers and children, and I can’t imagine how hard it would be to end up a single mom in the 60s, with probably less education and definitely less pay. Even if one did have grounds for a divorce, the social and economic consequences were terrible.
Indeed. My wife was divorced in 1968 after 10 years in an abusive marriage and wound up raising 5 children pretty much on her own. She was even able to get an annulment.
She struggled terrible for the next ten years. She had family who tried to help, but they were mostly out of town…Still she managed to get the kids raised, put herself through nursing school and make a success of her life…

But Evelyn you are quite right…It was quite a struggle.

This is what I mentioned in my post above, that one needs to consider the historical conditions when trying to compare numbers of divorces and annulments - This is especially true since the time frame we are talking about crosses the ā€œgreat divideā€ of the Vatican II council.

Peace
James
 
hmm… Not so sure that it isn’t a lot of money part. I know mine was at least 2 to 3 times the cost of a no contest divorce. And as far as the ā€˜if you can’t pay, the Church will reduce or wave cost.’ Maybe not so much, they just take the fee in instalments but don’t reduce or wave anything.
I suppose it could change between countries so please keep in mind I am refering to the UK.
I know that it is the way it is now - if you carefully read my post I was comparing now and 1963 since others are comparing those two data sets.
 
I know that it is the way it is now - if you carefully read my post I was comparing now and 1963 since others are comparing those two data sets.
I know, I did, indeed read your post. I just went through my annulment last year.
But like I said, perhaps its different because of countries 🤷
 
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