Anyone have statistics on annulments requested versus annulments granted?

[YADA]

Using the slight Okay … there is an old adage "Statistics don’t lie but liars use statistics. What’s that suppose to mean?

Granted; I’m not a huge contender for fabricated statistics from a secular viewpoint or for cheap political advantage. Are you calling the Knights of Columbus compiled statistics a lie? The Catholic Church uses compiled statistics themselves.

AND

kofc.org/un/en/resources/cis/cis301.pdf

So I’ll ask if you even read the entire document you linked and from which you obtained the 27k [2006] … the 338 [1968] …

This is a raw statistic at the beginning of a paper discussing the importance of marriage and the nnullmnet process in detail along with the misconceptions $50k in costs to ‘buy’ and annulment for example] …

From that mention of a raw statistic assumptions were being raised that the Church has become lenient - or however you want to describe the discussion. Misconceptions have arisen - even regarding the legitimacy of the children born of marriages later annulled … Sheesh

That is a lot of conclusions to draw from a statistic that was used merely to grab attention and set the stage for a serious discussion of matrimony and divorce and hopefully help people with information.

As I stated - it is important note that those 27k do not represent Catholic marriages between Catholics … Also represented are marriages between to non-Christians contracted at the local court house and a host of other scenarios … without context and additional data … using the information provided to make a point is reckless and dishonest …

If you want to attempt to educate me on where my analysis errors - please do so with facts … for example - if you can show that the Church never accepts a request to investigate marriages between two non-Catholic persons - please do so …

PS I know they do … I was married by a Justice of the Peace in South Carolina in 1976. I was baptized in the Church of Christ. My former spouse was un-baptized. Our marriage ended in 1991 - there were three very legitimate children born of that marriage. The Catholic Church started from the position that that marriage was valid - after investigating it - a decree of nullity was affirmed. I am not proud of the fact that my first marriage failed … I was not surprised that the Church found that "at the time of the marriage contract’ there were defects present in both parties that led us to enter into this marriage with less then the understanding and fee consent necessary for true validity and sacramentality …

Thus I say again … to really use the 27K …

For context - if one or two catholic persons contracted a marriage before a justice of the peace - later divorced and who then sought to get married in a Catholic ceremony would not need to obtain the annulment … yet I did … thus those divorced and remarrying catholic or catholics are not included in that 27,000 but the former marriage of two non catholics is …

So the 27,000 includes marriages which ended in divorce that were originally contracted between:

1. • Two non Christian - Non-Catholics married civilly
   • One non Christian - One Non-Catholic Christian married civilly
   • Two non Christian - Non-Catholics married in a religious ceremony
   • One non Christian - One Non-Catholic Christian married in a religious ceremony
   • One non Christian - One Catholic Christian married in a religious ceremony with proper dispensation [could have been in a CC or some Denom]
   • One Christian - One Catholic Christian married in a religious ceremony with proper dispensation
   • Two Catholics married in a catholic ceremony

1. 
   And you think that a simple comparison between the number of annulments granted in 1968 to the number of annulments granted in 2006 is meaningful?
   

   Off the top of my head - the following basic information is needed for analysis [and probably much more]

   • What was the total number of marriages in the United States - by category- identified in 1-7 above in 2006?
   • In 2006, what was the number of civil divorces granted for each of those 7 categories?
   • By category - in 2006, how many of those individual categories were submitted to a Tribunal?
   • Of those sub categories submitted - what was the breakdown of those 27,000 annulments granted by category?

 

[joanofarc2008]

I know, I did, indeed read your post. I just went through my annulment last year.
But like I said, perhaps its different because of countries

I misunderstood I am sorry.

 

[centurionguard]

AND

So I’ll ask if you even read the entire document you linked and from which you obtained the 27k [2006] … the 338 [1968] …

This is a raw statistic at the beginning of a paper discussing the importance of marriage and the nnullmnet process in detail along with the misconceptions $50k in costs to ‘buy’ and annulment for example] …

From that mention of a raw statistic assumptions were being raised that the Church has become lenient - or however you want to describe the discussion. Misconceptions have arisen - even regarding the legitimacy of the children born of marriages later annulled … Sheesh

That is a lot of conclusions to draw from a statistic that was used merely to grab attention and set the stage for a serious discussion of matrimony and divorce and hopefully help people with information.

As I stated - it is important note that those 27k do not represent Catholic marriages between Catholics … Also represented are marriages between to non-Christians contracted at the local court house and a host of other scenarios … without context and additional data … using the information provided to make a point is reckless and dishonest …

If you want to attempt to educate me on where my analysis errors - please do so with facts … for example - if you can show that the Church never accepts a request to investigate marriages between two non-Catholic persons - please do so …

PS I know they do … I was married by a Justice of the Peace in South Carolina in 1976. I was baptized in the Church of Christ. My former spouse was un-baptized. Our marriage ended in 1991 - there were three very legitimate children born of that marriage. The Catholic Church started from the position that that marriage was valid - after investigating it - a decree of nullity was affirmed. I am not proud of the fact that my first marriage failed … I was not surprised that the Church found that "at the time of the marriage contract’ there were defects present in both parties that led us to enter into this marriage with less then the understanding and fee consent necessary for true validity and sacramentality …

Thus I say again … to really use the 27K …

If you want to attempt to educate me on where my analysis errors - please do so with facts … for example - if you can show that the Church never accepts a request to investigate marriages between two non-Catholic persons - please do so …

Why should you ask me friend to educate you. You seem to have a front row seat by your statements. I have no front seat to the facts and I suspect you don’t either.

Peace
Chris

 

[TimothyH]

I think that the enlarged part is the really big question and observation.

The number of annulments granted IS a pointer to a much deeper problem (the “root cause”).
So rather than point to some large number of annulments granted, what needs to be examined is what are the causes that have led to this number of annulments granted.

YADA, in her post above that led us into our present conversation points out a number of different possibilities for breaking down the numbers to get better information.
**In addition, if one is to compare present day annulments approved against those of 40 or more years ago, one needs to look at various historical differences. This too has been alluded to.

I would love to see an article or paper that really seeks to look at all the different aspects of the annulment issue and breaks down the numbers into illuminative components so that we could actually carry on a useful dialogue. **Without good and comprehensive data, we just wind up spinning our wheels…

Peace
James

Indeed, one has to look at the historical differences.

Internet pornography did not exist. Easy access to abortion did not exist. Condoms were not handed out for free on college campuses and sold in the student bookstore and displayed in the same aisle as the Flintstone vitamins at Walmart. Fredericks of Hollywood and Victoria’s Secrets didn’t have display windows in the Mall where every 14 year old boy and girl to walk by.

I think we are asking for data when the root cause is staring us in the face. The level of sexual activity in our world is something without parallel in the history of creation. The hyper-sexual culture and the divorce and annullments it is causing finds it root in artificial contraception.

Fr. John Hardon: Our Gravest Moral Responsibility is to Convert the Contraception Mentality

Fr. John Hardon: Either Stop Contraception or Destroy the Family

Contraception: The Bacteria Devouring Americas Soul

Get rid of contraception and divorce, annullments, homosexuality, abortion, and a whole host of other issues will go away with it.

-Tim-

 

[maplebug55]

I think True Light has raised some valid points.

An annulment these days is just a formality.

I would have more belief in the annulment process if I had ever heard PERSONALLY
of one being denied. I never have.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I think True Light has raised some valid points.

An annulment these days is just a formality.

I would have more belief in the annulment process if I had ever heard PERSONALLY
of one being denied. I never have.

Theres been a couple posted right here on CAF.

 

[JRKH]

I think True Light has raised some valid points.

An annulment these days is just a formality.

I would have more belief in the annulment process if I had ever heard PERSONALLY
of one being denied. I never have.

Why would a “personal” experience of a denial make you more confident of the system?

THIS LINK shows that in 2006 in the US 86% of the 27,000 applications were granted, which means 14%, or something over 3700, were denied.

there is not doubt that there are problems, but the “formality” of an annulment, as you call it, points to deeper issues and NOT to a problem with the system for examining marriages.

Peace
James

 

[figs]

I misunderstood I am sorry.

No problem

 

[maplebug55]

Why would a “personal” experience of a denial make you more confident of the system?

THIS LINK shows that in 2006 in the US 86% of the 27,000 applications were granted, which means 14%, or something over 3700, were denied.

there is not doubt that there are problems, but the “formality” of an annulment, as you call it, points to deeper issues and NOT to a problem with the system for examining marriages.

Peace
James

I believe annulments are given too freely. 86% is an extremely high number.
Not a popular opinion on catholic answers forums.

 

[maplebug55]

sometimes, albeit not often, a spouse beleives their marriage WAS valid and had met the conditions, just to have the opposing spouse get the church’s blessing to marry
their new boyfriend/girlfriend, leaving the first spouse with deep wounds.
They are definitely the FORGOTTEN party.

 

[maplebug55]

JRKH;8911440:

I think once you start implying that someone who has a different view is less than reasonably intelligent, and the thumbs up are flying left and right, it’s time to close the thread.

I hope all of you who suddenly apply the strictest discipline in statistical analysis are ready to do so in all the other threads.

 

[JRKH]

I believe annulments are given too freely. 86% is an extremely high number.
Not a popular opinion on catholic answers forums.

I can’t say whether this opinion is popular or not. Certainly, as a statement of thought it is as good place to start as any.
What we have been trying to discover on this thread is the truth of some “statistics” tossed out. For instance, you say that 86% is an extremely high number…But this “number” really isn’t a number at all. It is a percentage. If, in a given year there were only 86 annulments granted out of a total of 100 applications, the percentage would remain the same - 86% granted. But we would not be having this conversation because 86 out of 100 is an extremely low number.
You see - a percentage is not a “number” but rather a ratio which is only meaningful when it is connected to other data - the data from which it is derived.

Now - as to whether annulments are “given too freely” - one needs more than just “I believe that…” as a basis.
Why do you believe that?
Where do you see the breakdown occurring?
Is the problem with the Tribunals? OR
Are the tribunals simply having to deal with the fallout of problems elsewhere?

When you offer your opinion that annulments are “given too freely” then certainly others have the option to ask you what you base your opinion on…just as you can ask us others what they base their opinion on. In this way we can grow in mutual understanding.

Personally, I start from this premises:

• The Church is God’s agent on Earth with the authority to bind and loose.
• The Church established the method, the tribunals and the criteria.
• Those charged with the functioning of said system attempt to do the best job possible.
• The Church, through the duly established system, criteria and trained individuals legitimately binds or looses based on the information supplied.

Assuming these things are true (in general though certainly abuses could occur), then there must be other reasons - other problems - underlying the high number of a) divorces and b) annulments granted.

sometimes, albeit not often, a spouse believes their marriage WAS valid and had met the conditions, just to have the opposing spouse get the church’s blessing to marry
their new boyfriend/girlfriend, leaving the first spouse with deep wounds.
They are definitely the FORGOTTEN party.

Yes I suppose that this can certainly where one party might feel ignored, yet I would not say that the system is designed in such a way as to exclude one party or to “forget” them. The system is requires that both parties be contacted, and that each party supply the names of at least 3 witnesses - people who knew the couple before, during and after the wedding…

When I began the application process the deacon was explaining how it all worked. He told me that in less than 4% of cases does the ex-spouse even choose to participate.
This does not mean that they are not contacted (if possible) or that they cannot participate. I know that in my case my ex did not participate personally, but DID supply a witness list and at least one of them did testify.

Then of course, the “respondent” has the same rights as the party who files. That is, they may appeal the decision of the Tribunal - all the way to Rome if they feel they have a legitimate case.

Again, let me say that I am not attacking your opinion, I am merely offering some thoughts for consideration.

Peace
James

 

[maplebug55]

Someone else’s opinion…

msnbc.msn.com/id/35143792/ns/world_news-europe/t/pope-urges-annulments-crackdown-all-costs/

Let’s not forget Jesus taught the PERMANENCE of marriage.

 

[EvelynEVF]

sometimes, albeit not often, a spouse beleives their marriage WAS valid and had met the conditions, just to have the opposing spouse get the church’s blessing to marry
their new boyfriend/girlfriend, leaving the first spouse with deep wounds.
They are definitely the FORGOTTEN party.

I have to respectfully disagree. My xh has contested my petition, and he is far from forgotten. The burden of proof lies with me, and simply by refusing to release information, he has thrown a very impressive wrench into the works. The process for me has been going on for TWO YEARS and I’m told it will be weeks more before the next set of evidence is even requested from my witnesses.

 

[maplebug55]

People need to realize that divorce and annulments rupture the family unit which
has life long consequences for ALL involved.

 

[EvelynEVF]

I think we can all agree that divorce for irresponsible reasons, and subsequent hasty or unwise remarriage, are a bad thing for the family.

But I don’t believe that the solution is to paint divorce and declarations of nullity as the culprits, when really it’s the underlying issues which destroy marriage that need to be addressed.

 

[maplebug55]

what underlying issues?

 

[JRKH]

People need to realize that divorce and annulments rupture the family unit which
has life long consequences for ALL involved.

Now we are starting to move in a more proper direction…However, I think you should consider that you have it a bit backwards…
Consider.
One cannot get an annulment until one is divorced.
One cannot get divorced until the family unit is ruptured.
So - It is not divorce and annulments that cause the rupture - rather ti is the rupture that causes the divorce and annulments.

However - Taking what you have provided we can begin a “root cause analysis”…
Starting with your premise of"
*Too many annulments are granted…we ask Why?
*Because there are too many divorces…again - Why?
*Because the the family has been ruptured…and again - Why?
…hhmmm…

So - in our effort to get at the root cause of the problem the next question that needs to be asked is what causes the rupturing of the family?

Peace
James

 

[joanofarc2008]

People need to realize that divorce and annulments rupture the family unit which
has life long consequences for ALL involved.

No divorce ruptures the family. Annulment only makes a decision on whether or not there was a valid, Sacramental bond in place at the beginning - it has not bearing on what happens to the family.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I believe annulments are given too freely. 86% is an extremely high number.

1. Annulments are not brought to trial unless the canon lawyer believes it has a good chance of being granted. This skewers the numbers a bit since cases that have questionable grounds rarely go to trial.
2. canonlaw.info/a_annulments.htm is a good article looking at what’s behind those numbers.

Someone else’s opinion…

msnbc.msn.com/id/35143792/ns/world_news-europe/t/pope-urges-annulments-crackdown-all-costs/

Here’s the full text of the address without commentary:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2010/january/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20100129_rota-romana_en.html

All in all its a pretty ho hum address that fails to live up the media hype.

Let’s not forget Jesus taught the PERMANENCE of marriage.

Well, let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. For starters St. Paul clearly taught (inspired by the Holy Spirit) that a natural marriage could, under limited circumstances, be dissolved (1 Cor 7:10-15).
Secondly, a valid sacramental marriage is indeed permanent and indissoluble.