anyone know about church of christ?

[kwortham]

I spent the first thirty-five years of my life in that…It was never positive. It was, in fact, all negative all of the time. All of the sermons were about the evils of the whole world as opposed to what the “church of Christ” does. The prayer of the Pharisee (Luke 18:11) was the typical prayer prayed during “worship service.”

Once I studied early Church Fathers (Ante-Nicene), history taught me that the early Church was Catholic all the way back to the Apostles. Clement of Rome spoke as a Catholic. Saint Ignatius spoke as a Catholic, Saint Justin Martyr spoke as a Catholic. On and on, they all taught what the Catholic Church teaches today.

It was all over when the scale was lifted from my eyes and I read what the bible says is the pillar and ground of truth. It is not scripture! The Church is called the ground of truth. As such, it can never fail. It is the Catholic Church we must obey and not our private interpretations (i.e. interpretations not made by the Church Magisterium).

Suffice it to say for now that the bible did not exist until the late 4th century. Sure, the books that ended up in it were passed around along with many other books before the canon of scripture was established in 382 AD. By the same token, I have Webster’s dictionary. Would I be honest in claiming that I have the New York Times 2020 best seller in my possession, since it has all of the words that will be in the year 2020 bestseller???

Lastly, the “church of Christ” is cult-like in that it is hard to leave. You have people bothering you all the time about leaving. None of the them listen. Why should they listen because they believe that they “know the truth.” They will not listen to history, the early fathers and flat out ignore many bible verses like 1 Tim 3:15

 

[Traverse]

Traverse I have said my last word to you.

With respect, you talk to me like we’ve been arguing this whole time when we haven’t been. I will answer a few of your statements for others who might read and not for you if that’s how you feel. I’m sorry if I offended you in some way.

You don’t believe the bible to be the inspired word of God, which is a WHOLE other issue. Believing it is, and trusting in it, is not at all worshipping a book. It’s worshiping God and following his commandments. If you don’t believe the bible is God’s word then yeah, that’ll look weird. But that doesn’t make you right.

I’ve never heard the term CENI, but it sounds like you’re describing sola scriptura which, sure, lots of people disagree with that, but calling it idolatry is really weird. Disagree with the philosophy all you want, but I say this to your benefit. I hope you will in the future understand why you’re disagreeing with these things better. If a church believes the bible is the word of God (which you don’t) then it makes sense for the church to seek guidance from the bible in its display of the truth. It makes zero sense to do the exact opposite.

kwortham, I want to question you on one point you made about it being “hard to leave.” You did not go into detail here, but perhaps you can shed some light since you said you were part of the church for many years before leaving for the catholic faith. So you say people bother you about leaving… if I’m reading that properly, are you saying that you would leave the church and people would try to get you to come back? Though you disagree with their doctrinal beliefs obviously I don’t understand how that’s cult like for someone to care about your soul and want to talk with you about the decisions you are making. It sounds like you did talk, and that they “didn’t listen,” but it seems to me it’s possible they just disagreed with you. I’m just curious about how your actual exist took place. Thanks.

 

[andrewstx]

With respect, you talk to me like we’ve been arguing this whole time when we haven’t been. I will answer a few of your statements for others who might read and not for you if that’s how you feel. I’m sorry if I offended you in some way.

You don’t believe the bible to be the inspired word of God, which is a WHOLE other issue. Believing it is, and trusting in it, is not at all worshipping a book. It’s worshiping God and following his commandments. If you don’t believe the bible is God’s word then yeah, that’ll look weird. But that doesn’t make you right.

I’ve never heard the term CENI, but it sounds like you’re describing sola scriptura which, sure, lots of people disagree with that, but calling it idolatry is really weird. Disagree with the philosophy all you want, but I say this to your benefit. I hope you will in the future understand why you’re disagreeing with these things better. If a church believes the bible is the word of God (which you don’t) then it makes sense for the church to seek guidance from the bible in its display of the truth. It makes zero sense to do the exact opposite.

kwortham, I want to question you on one point you made about it being “hard to leave.” You did not go into detail here, but perhaps you can shed some light since you said you were part of the church for many years before leaving for the catholic faith. So you say people bother you about leaving… if I’m reading that properly, are you saying that you would leave the church and people would try to get you to come back? Though you disagree with their doctrinal beliefs obviously I don’t understand how that’s cult like for someone to care about your soul and want to talk with you about the decisions you are making. It sounds like you did talk, and that they “didn’t listen,” but it seems to me it’s possible they just disagreed with you. I’m just curious about how your actual exist took place. Thanks.

WRONG. I believe Jesus is the Word of God, see John chapter one. Check out
Exchurchofchrist.com. You will find it is full of people who have been hurt by “the church”, there are many. Just as I was hurt and dissapointed by that fundamentalist denomination.

And that is exactly what the self named, self proclaimed “church of christ” is. Just one more fundiemomination out of thousands.

CENI is mentioned all the time in exchurchofchrist.com by others who have also been wounded by that sect.

When I left the “cofc” I was condemned to hell, disowned and disinherited, by my own family. Just read the site for yourself. I dare you.

 

[Veronica97]

I have a close family member who is a member of the Church of Christ. She believes very strongly that all Christians, no matter their denomination, are members of the Body of Christ. She often tells me about her Pastor and what he teaches about the Bible, and I’ve got to say MUCH of the time his understanding is “right on” with what the Catholic Church teaches. Of course, there is different belief about Communion and Confession, etc., but we simply accept each others’ differences in belief and instead focus on COMMON ground, which is a love of the Lord! Having been raised Protestant and now a Catholic, I have seen discrimination on both sides, and I try to be a “bridge” of understanding whenever I can. I don’t like “blanket” statements about the Methodist Church or the Lutheran Church or the Catholic Church or the Baptist Church…etc. and so on and so forth. I find that by studying the Scriptures and really trying to “live” them, I have helped to dispel the belief that Catholics don’t know or read the Bible. My family member knows I don’t “worship statues” like I was told as a child. My husband (raised Catholic) thought that Protestant churches don’t believe in the Trinity and they all spend hours in church every Sunday shouting “Amen!” I don’t like what I’m reading in this thread tonight…it doesn’t bode well for us Catholics…and certainly doesn’t show us in a Christian light. We Christians need to stick together b/c if we don’t this government will take our religious freedom away little by little.

 

[Veronica97]

I know some people have posted positive, unifying statements on this thread, so I didn’t mean to lump everyone in that category. But I also read some nasty statements as well.

 

[fbl9]

Oh well we only have a few more days until everything collapses May 27 2012

Sorry this is from the Church of God not the Church of Christ.

 

[Traverse]

WRONG. I believe Jesus is the Word of God, see John chapter one. Check out
Exchurchofchrist.com. You will find it is full of people who have been hurt by “the church”, there are many. Just as I was hurt and dissapointed by that fundamentalist denomination.

And that is exactly what the self named, self proclaimed “church of christ” is. Just one more fundiemomination out of thousands.

CENI is mentioned all the time in exchurchofchrist.com by others who have also been wounded by that sect.

When I left the “cofc” I was condemned to hell, disowned and disinherited, by my own family. Just read the site for yourself. I dare you.

I’ve seen that site before. It’s not impressive.

I still don’t understand why you’re taking such an argumentative stance with me. I’m not trying to convert you or make you change your mind. I was just curious about your experiences and how they conflict with my own experiences. You’re making it out like I’m trying to deceive you and, quite frankly, it’s weirding me out.

The only doctrinal issue I can comment on in your most recent post is the fact that you were “disowned and disinherited.” This is not an exclusive church of Christ doctrine.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.

So if you were a member of the church, a “brother” and you left it, abandoned it, this is the action the bible tells us to take. I understand that you are orthodox (I do not know their beliefs on this matter) but unless I am mistaken this is the catholic concept of ex-communication. Again I say this is not doctrine exclusive to the “church of Christ.” Now your family might have gone to extremes by “disinheriting you” (which I take to mean they cut you out of a will) but I see nothing in essence wrong with their conduct (based on what you’ve told me) in that they tried to talk to you and you did not listen to them. If you’re rejecting the belief you once shared and you refuse to listen to them what are they supposed to do?

The goal is to no longer meet with you in order to help you, to get you to think about what you’ve done.

1 Corinthians 5:5
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is so that your soul may be saved. What would be unkind is if your parents acted like nothing was wrong.

But I feel the need to clarify, I am not trying to convert you or tell you that your doctrinal beliefs are wrong. What I am trying to point out is that this is not cult like behavior, as you put it, because it’s not only in the bible but shared by other churches.

Note, I do not believe that cutting yourself off from one who turns their back on the church involves “shunning” them or being rude to them or hurtful. If that happened to you then I’m truly sorry.

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.
Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

I hope you read what I say with the knowledge that I’m merely trying to point out what I belief in contrast with what you experience, not to prove you wrong but to hopefully show you that your experience (and the experiences of many on the ex church of christ site) are actually representative of a proper experience.

 

[andrewstx]

I’ve seen that site before. It’s not impressive.

I still don’t understand why you’re taking such an argumentative stance with me. I’m not trying to convert you or make you change your mind. I was just curious about your experiences and how they conflict with my own experiences. You’re making it out like I’m trying to deceive you and, quite frankly, it’s weirding me out.

The only doctrinal issue I can comment on in your most recent post is the fact that you were “disowned and disinherited.” This is not an exclusive church of Christ doctrine.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.

My words interjected. I am not and never was immoral. covetous, a swindler, an idolator or a swindler or a drunkard.

So if you were a member of the church, a “brother” and you left it, abandoned it, this is the action the bible tells us to take. I understand that you are orthodox (I do not know their beliefs on this matter) but unless I am mistaken this is the catholic concept of ex-communication. Again I say this is not doctrine exclusive to the “church of Christ.” Now your family might have gone to extremes by “disinheriting you” (which I take to mean they cut you out of a will) but I see nothing in essence wrong with their conduct (based on what you’ve told me) in that they tried to talk to you and you did not listen to them. If you’re rejecting the belief you once shared and you refuse to listen to them what are they supposed to do?

I was not a member of the church until I left your sect and was baptised validly (by submmersion three times).  I certainly do not accept your sect as being peers with the TRUE church of Christ.  As Orthodox we do not "disfellowship" or ban people from the Body and Blood of Christ pemenetly.  People are not barred from Communion as a legal punishment, but as a tempoeary medicine for the good of their souls.

The goal is to no longer meet with you in order to help you, to get you to think about what you’ve done.

1 Corinthians 5:5
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is so that your soul may be saved. What would be unkind is if your parents acted like nothing was wrong.

But I feel the need to clarify, I am not trying to convert you or tell you that your doctrinal beliefs are wrong. What I am trying to point out is that this is not cult like behavior, as you put it, because it’s not only in the bible but shared by other churches.

Note, I do not believe that cutting yourself off from one who turns their back on the church involves “shunning” them or being rude to them or hurtful. If that happened to you then I’m truly sorry.

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.
Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

I hope you read what I say with the knowledge that I’m merely trying to point out what I belief in contrast with what you experience, not to prove you wrong but to hopefully show you that your experience (and the experiences of many on the ex church of christ site) are actually representative of a proper experience.

I understand where you are comming from, I merely dissagree.  Just like my campbellite father said "You have no values" I replied "I have values  but they are not the same as your values". I think he was espousing far right politics far more than having proper love for his son.  For some people politics comes before all other things.

How dare you equate your sect (est 1906) with the real church of Christ est 33 CE!
I am talking about real history as opposed to campellite fantasy. If there were a church that had no clergy, thought that the Eucharist was only symbolic, hated liturgyand made worship a show where the preacher had the only speaking part, it would be recorded in history. But such a fantasy church has never existed until the Campbells and Stone invented it from thin air.

I’m sorry but your words make me angry and I am on a roll. I have heard them all from my folks, I agreed to be dunked in the “cofC” under duress, to get a little peace.

 

[andrewstx]

I have been mulling shunning over in my head, and no the Catholics nor do the Orthodox shun.

The people who mostly shun are cults like mormons, jehovah witnesses, the SDA. The only orthodox (small o) Christians to practice shunning are the amish and of course the “cofC”.

The huge majority of Christians are more charitable in their treatment of members who have problems.

I hope people are aware of the huge ammount of doctrine the CofC shares with the mormons. They both accept the apostacy/restoration dichotomy, baptism by dunking only for repentant believers only for the remmision of sins. They both practice the Lord’s supper as symbolic only, and on Sundays only. Both sects do it the same 2 short prayers, one for the bread and the other for the grape juice. The difference is that mormons use water because at one time they feared the wine (not grape juice which did not exist at the time) would be poisoned by their many enemies.

In truth the influence came from a convert from the Disciples of Christ to mormonism. That man became very influential in mormon circles, in fact he nearly succeeded Joeseph Smith to the mormon presidency instead of Brigham Young. I am sorry but because of my stroke his name escapes me at this time.

I expect no responce from “cofC” members, this is one of the things they ignore opr sweep under the rug, as do the mormons also.

If the name comes to me later I will post it, so that you all can look it up. Ok it came to me feeble brain, it’s Sidney Rigdon.

 

[BMCD]

I have been mulling shunning over in my head, and no the Catholics nor do the Orthodox shun.

The people who mostly shun are cults like mormons, jehovah witnesses, the SDA. The only orthodox (small o) Christians to practice shunning are the amish and of course the “cofC”.

The huge majority of Christians are more charitable in their treatment of members who have problems.

I hope people are aware of the huge ammount of doctrine the CofC shares with the mormons. They both accept the apostacy/restoration dichotomy, baptism by dunking only for repentant believers only for the remmision of sins. They both practice the Lord’s supper as symbolic only, and on Sundays only. Both sects do it the same 2 short prayers, one for the bread and the other for the grape juice. The difference is that mormons use water because at one time they feared the wine (not grape juice which did not exist at the time) would be poisoned by their many enemies.

In truth the influence came from a convert from the Disciples of Christ to mormonism. That man became very influential in mormon circles, in fact he nearly succeeded Joeseph Smith to the mormon presidency instead of Brigham Young. I am sorry but because of my stroke his name escapes me at this time.

I expect no responce from “cofC” members, this is one of the things they ignore opr sweep under the rug, as do the mormons also.

If the name comes to me later I will post it, so that you all can look it up. Ok it came to me feeble brain, it’s Sidney Rigdon.

The Mormon stuff has gone too far. For one thing the Church of Christ believes in the Trinity. As I stated in a previous thread I was taught to look to the Catholic Church on this issue. The Mormons have a very different view of the Trinity.

My congregation has never withdrawn fellowship from anyone, and you also said that the congregation you were a part of did not do that either. That said I know of Church of Christ congregations that have. It is their version of ex-communication. I believe that the Catholic Church has the right to ex-communicate people and I hardly believe that makes them a cult.

As for dunking, the Southern Baptists also practice baptism by immersion as well. Are you saying that they are Mormons too? While we are on the subject of immersion, the Orthodox practice baptism by immersion as well. I know that they practice infant baptism, but I am curious as to why an Orthodox Christian would have a problem with immersion?

Sidney Rigdon was associated with the Alexander Campbell. He was forced to resign in 1824. In 1830 he first learned about the book of Mormon, and then he became Mormon. That is quite a large gap in time from the Alexander Campbell to Mormon. I had never heard of the guy so I looked him up. This isn’t something that is swept under the rug, it is just that most Church of Christ people simply don’t care for good reason. The fact some guy that studied under Alexander Campbell copied some stuff and took it to the Mormons means nothing to them. You are trying to make it look like the Church of Christ and the Mormons are the same thing. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

The amount of venom and misinformation in this thread toward the Church of Christ is becoming offensive to me.

 

[BMCD]

After sitting on my reply for a day I have decided to add some things. First, I find that people love to judge religious groups based on the actions of members, who in many cases are not devout. For example an abusive family did some terrible things to a person in this thread. By reading the background I saw people that used the CofC when it was convenient while totally ignoring other major teachings. Stereotyping the CofC based on their actions would be like stereotyping the Catholic Church based on the actions of Mexican drug cartel members who happen to be Catholic. This isn’t just a CofC thing, I read something in the news today that was basically a character assassination of the Catholic Church by the media that would not have been news had it been any other organization. I have told people in the past from various denominations that I am thinking about converting to Catholicism only to have them bring up all sorts of things from the past about the Catholic Church. They don’t seem to understand that I don’t care what the people did, I care about what the Church did. Humans love to stereotype groups based on the worst that particular group has to offer.

Second, I saw a friend tonight who I go to Church with who made me think about the shunning thing mentioned earlier. Last year this friend came out of the closet. His CofC family was disappointed and upset for about a month. Even during that time he was not shunned. His family still loves him and treats him much the same as they did before. He comes to Church from time to time, and apart from some busybody old people who gossip, there really isn’t a problem. The funny thing is another gay friend who happens to be CofC has had the same experience. The CofC is officially very unfriendly to homosexuals, but in these cases the individual family members could care less about CofC teachings because they love their child or sibling. Their true friends really don’t care either. That is between them and God and who am I to judge.

Third, the CofC has evolved quite a bit in my lifetime. My formerly baptist father said that when he went to a CofC school he was informed that he was going to hell for being baptist. He said that in the 1960s he was treated quite badly for not being CofC. These days most CofC people are just happy that people are going to Church somewhere. Some of the older CofC people can be quite unbending, but I think our society has pitted Christianity against the world in such a way that a small group such as the CofC simply cannot afford to be petty. That is not to say that there aren’t people in that group who are (see the gossipers mentioned above), that is just to say that it has seemed to die down a great deal over the years in my experience.

Finally, I feel the need to sum up the CofC beliefs and worship service as this thread asks about the CofC. They believe that the Bible(really the New Testament) is all you need. I have come to disagree with that, but it is what they believe. They also believe in adult baptism by immersion and that communion is a symbol much like the Baptists. The big difference between CofC and Baptist on salvation is that the CofC reject OSAS, and believe that baptism is for salvation while rejecting the sinner’s prayer. As for the worship service, take a Baptist service, make the singing acapella(no musical instruments), and have communion every Sunday (usually after the singing but before the sermon). While I disagree with the CofC on most of the things above, I feel that I am in a good position to show what the beliefs and practices of this particular group are today. I hope I have answered everyone’s questions.

 

[andrewstx]

The Mormon stuff has gone too far. For one thing the Church of Christ believes in the Trinity. As I stated in a previous thread I was taught to look to the Catholic Church on this issue. The Mormons have a very different view of the Trinity.

My congregation has never withdrawn fellowship from anyone, and you also said that the congregation you were a part of did not do that either. That said I know of Church of Christ congregations that have. It is their version of ex-communication. I believe that the Catholic Church has the right to ex-communicate people and I hardly believe that makes them a cult.

As for dunking, the Southern Baptists also practice baptism by immersion as well. Are you saying that they are Mormons too? While we are on the subject of immersion, the Orthodox practice baptism by immersion as well. I know that they practice infant baptism, but I am curious as to why an Orthodox Christian would have a problem with immersion?

Sidney Rigdon was associated with the Alexander Campbell. He was forced to resign in 1824. In 1830 he first learned about the book of Mormon, and then he became Mormon. That is quite a large gap in time from the Alexander Campbell to Mormon. I had never heard of the guy so I looked him up. This isn’t something that is swept under the rug, it is just that most Church of Christ people simply don’t care for good reason. The fact some guy that studied under Alexander Campbell copied some stuff and took it to the Mormons means nothing to them. You are trying to make it look like the Church of Christ and the Mormons are the same thing. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

The amount of venom and misinformation in this thread toward the Church of Christ is becoming offensive to me.

I am sorry to offend, maybe things in the cofC have changed a lot since I was there. I was posting almost exclusively to Traverse although everyone could read it.

In my cofC days the word Trinity was never ever used they said Godhead instead for some reason.

Barton Stone seemed to reject the Trinity doctrine. but I know Stone is not an authority for all cofC members, but he was influentual for many.

I got carried away with my talk with Traverse, and I appologise for bringing it to the whole thread.

I freely admit and confess that the cofC is just as Christian as the other denominations. and yes I used the word sect to offend Traverse since I am aware that many cofC members are offended by it and I wanted to get his goat so to say.

I have no attention to return to the cofC, I just prefer Orthodox liturgy and beauty as opposed to the plainess of cofC worship.

I am very sorry to have made my fellow Christians upset or have hurt feelings. I have done so inadvertently, and I want peace with my fellow Christians in the cofC.

Sorry for all.

 

[BMCD]

I am sorry to offend, maybe things in the cofC have changed a lot since I was there. I was posting almost exclusively to Traverse although everyone could read it.

In my cofC days the word Trinity was never ever used they said Godhead instead for some reason.

Barton Stone seemed to reject the Trinity doctrine. but I know Stone is not an authority for all cofC members, but he was influentual for many.

I got carried away with my talk with Traverse, and I appologise for bringing it to the whole thread.

I freely admit and confess that the cofC is just as Christian as the other denominations. and yes I used the word sect to offend Traverse since I am aware that many cofC members are offended by it and I wanted to get his goat so to say.

I have no attention to return to the cofC, I just prefer Orthodox liturgy and beauty as opposed to the plainess of cofC worship.

I am very sorry to have made my fellow Christians upset or have hurt feelings. I have done so inadvertently, and I want peace with my fellow Christians in the cofC.

Sorry for all.

I appreciate your reply and I apologize if I took too harsh of a tone. The CofC is funny to me in that while I don’t believe much of what it teaches, I have a place in my heart for it due to the role that it has played in my life. I truly appreciate your saying that CofC is just as Christian as other denominations. You have certainly made peace with me and likewise I want peace with you.

Barton Stone did reject the Trinity, but was later overruled as the years went by. I am thankful for that because I was not taught heresy in that regard.

Some of the history that you have brought up has caused me to research the history of the restoration movement even further. I found myself explaining the flaws in the history of the CofC to my wife today. It is sometimes tough to face the truth. I read things on this thread that I needed to read, but are tough to deal with. While I ruled out the CofC four years ago, I have sat by and done nothing about it as if it is something that will just go away. I would appreciate your prayers as I try to become more proactive in my own faith.

 

[andrewstx]

I appreciate your reply and I apologize if I took too harsh of a tone. The CofC is funny to me in that while I don’t believe much of what it teaches, I have a place in my heart for it due to the role that it has played in my life. I truly appreciate your saying that CofC is just as Christian as other denominations. You have certainly made peace with me and likewise I want peace with you.

Barton Stone did reject the Trinity, but was later overruled as the years went by. I am thankful for that because I was not taught heresy in that regard.

Some of the history that you have brought up has caused me to research the history of the restoration movement even further. I found myself explaining the flaws in the history of the CofC to my wife today. It is sometimes tough to face the truth. I read things on this thread that I needed to read, but are tough to deal with. While I ruled out the CofC four years ago, I have sat by and done nothing about it as if it is something that will just go away. I would appreciate your prayers as I try to become more proactive in my own faith.

Of course I will pray for you as I hope you will pray for me, look for a private message.

 

[CopticChristian]

QUOTE=solarguy17;9284964]Actually, this is pretty interesting, because the idea that the canon was established in 390. Where do you get that idea? I have never heard of any proof saying what the 1st century Christians did or did not say was canon. From what I understand, in 390, the canon was not established as much as it was confirmed as to what was and wasn’t canon. This may seem to a be a quibbling of words but there is a big difference in establishing something and confirming it. Also, I struggled with this concept for a long time, until I heard a Catholic explain to me what actually occurred in 390 AD. He also gave a me a book regarding Catholic views of the Bible and canon. I skimmed through because at the time (HS) I didn’t really care. But that was some that stuck with me, the idea canon was confirmed not established, similar to what occurred shortly after Luther started attacking the Deutrocanonicals.

This goes back to the idea of the Gnostic gospels, in the 2nd and 3rd centuries gnostics started to write “gospels” and “letters” that were purported to be God-inspired and on the same level as the NT we see today. The council in 390 was simply confirming what was really canon and what really wasn’t.
They didn’t’ take a list of say 50 books and whittle it down to 27. They simply looked at the books that everyone always used and consider to be canon and eliminated the rest. 390AD isn’t that far removed from 70AD and given that theirs was a mostly vocal society it would have been impressed upon most Christians at the time what the original Apostles believed was canon. The attempted additions by the Gnostics were mostly ignored, but Catholic Church took it upon itself to confirm what should be and shouldn’t be included in the canon.

Also, note I’m not telling you that you have to believe it, but I am trying to clear up a common misunderstanding that members of churches of Christ commonly say. That is that church of Christ existed throughout history silently beside the Catholic Church.

**Now, granted that really that doesn’t matter because at the end of the day church history and whether or not your belief in that church history will have nothing to do with you getting in to Heaven./**QUOTE]

Solar,

Then the history of Jehovah Witness, Mormons and Oneness Pentocostals has nothing to do with getting into heaven…then the question for you

how do you believe you get into heaven?

 

[CopticChristian]

That is somewhat correct. The non-use of certain terms, Trinity for example, is partially for the members that have left various other churches to join the church of Christ. Some when they leave are uncomfortable with the use of terminology associated with that church and so out of respect for them, we tend not to use some of those terms, even if their is nothing wrong with the term itself.
Also, I have noticed that is mostly with in the older population of the church. The younger people seem to be more OK, not 100% but better about not being offended by simply word choice.

Yes, we do use the only the word Christian to describe ourselves. And yes, we do use specific religions terms to describe other churches if they are mentioned. But that has to do more with being clear then a holier-than-thou attitude. At my particular church, some people are very careful to use the term “member of the church in XXXXX”" or “members of the church of Christ in XXXXX” rather then use the term “Christians in XXXX” because some people do find it offensive. I don’t believe any one that goes to a church of Christ wants to be offensive, but we also want to be accurate.

I think if you look back the history of the Restoration Movement and the ideas that the leaders of the movement were espousing, you will see that the idea for it wasn’t to promote unity, but to purge out incorrect teaching and beliefs. If it was just to promote unity the results would have been very different and the resulting churches would have been a lot closer to the big Community Church movement, were no one and nothing is wrong and everyone is going to Heaven no matter what sins that committed.

Solar,

I want you to be accurate. Catholic Christian, Orthodox Christian, Protestant Christian is entirely accurate. Anything other than that is perjorative. You want accuracy then be accurate. You are not a Christian. You are a Protestant Christian descendant from the Campbellites professing to be Christian by designation, now that is accurate.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have done some interpolation on my own, but as far as how the early Catholic Church formed, thats pretty common knowledge (by historians). Notice how in the NT of the Bible, no part of it speaks about 1 Bishop being over multiple local churches, or 1 “Head Bishop” being over all churches.
I know that Catholic believe that Matthew 16:16 is the verses that prove Peter was the first Pope, but really look at Peter, was he ever called “Pope”, No. Was he ever called “Father”?, no. In fact after about the middle of Acts Peter isn’t mention at all and is never mention as being a Bishop or Elder at all. He is never called anything other then Apostle, like all the other Apostles.
If you take hard look at the history of the early church between 1st and 4th centuries, you will see a lot of confusion and change in order to protect the “soul” of the church. I would suggest finding a Catholic, non-Catholic, and even atheist historians when looking at this period. It is interesting the differences that are noted.

Solar,

Notice in the bible how we never see “church of christ”

 

[CopticChristian]

Just as a suggestion for your husband. He should attend a church simply to make his dad feel better, and really it probably won’t do that. If you dad is truly interested in attending a church of Christ then he should be doing it for his own reasons, not simply to make someone happy, because in the end, the rift and animosity will just get worse.

You are correct that is big issue. I has to do with what the proper use of God’s money is, should we be using his money for worship and spreading the gospel or do we also use it to entertain and edify one another on the church property. I understand why the church I go to removed the kitchen when they purchased the building we are currently in and I agree with it.
The idea is basically that the church building should be used for worship and learning activities. To introduce other activities in might diminish the importance of worship, this can actually be seen occurring in many newer churches, were the social activities seem to the the focus and worship is the background activity. I don’t believe this is the case with the Catholic Church but it is with others.
By not allowing a kitchen or other recreational activities, we are precluding that from being a problem. We also encourage our members to get together and be social as their houses and parks around town. And we do, in fact last night i was a member’s house for a graduation party in which about 1/3 of the church attended. It was good times.

The reason we don’t use denomination or sect is simply because we believe that in trying to be a church as close the 1st century as possible that we are an extension of that original church. Yes, separate by 2000 yrs but still trying to be one and same with the church shown in the Bible. Denomination infers a spilt from something and we don’t believe we split. Rather restored back to the church founded by Christ.

Solar,

Beliefs are beliefs and not necessarily true. Mormons believe they restored the church. How do you see that one.

 

[CopticChristian]

JustaServant - Apparently I have ruffled a feather or two. You seem to be upset about some or all of what I said. I actually don’t think for the most part what I said about the formation of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church most Catholics would disagree with. It is a fact that NT doesn’t mention the concept of a Priest being in charge of a Christian church, or a Bishop being in charge of multiple church, or the Pope being in charge of the whole of the church.

If it clearly says it some where in the NT that I am many other non-Catholic Christians would be very interested, but that simply is the truth about what the Bible says regarding the organization of the church. And remember, yes, I did do my own interpolation or multiple different books coming from different point of views but I also realize I could be in error as to the formation of the Catholic Church. And ultimently, how the Catholic Church came to be today or in 400AD really doesn’t matter one bit.

Also, I never mentioned anything about faith and works or the concept of Eucharist vs Communion.

1 - I do agree with faith without works is pointless. I don’t know why you implied that me or non-Catholics believe that only faith is needed. I simply think that is a false premise. Yes, there are plenty of people that believe that either faith or works are all that is needed, but those people are wrong. And both are needed.

2 - As far as Eucharist/Communion goes. The church of Christ members believe that the bread and wine (grape juice actually) are symbolic of Christ’s shed blood and flesh. The is a pretty complicated topic from whichever view point you have. But the basic reason hinges on 2 things, one Christ first broke bread and drank the wine prior to his death, if they are real presence that action doesn’t make sense. The 2nd main reason is because of the phrase “in remembrance of me”, this phrase is similar to phrases in the OT in which people made alters to remember specific events. Obviously the alter is a physically the same as the event but reminds people of the event when they see or use the alter.
Obviously this is a pretty complicated topic and those 3 lines aren’t going to completely explain it and of course their are verses that explain this better. And being that I’m not a theological scholar, I couldn’t argue or explain it best anyway.

If you are truly interested in know why we believe communion is to be symbolic then I would suggest talking to an elder or preacher at a local church of Christ.

Like said earlier. I’m not attempting to convince or prove anyone wrong, just trying to explain what the church of Christ teaches and in particular what I believe.

Solar,

In order to be accurate you yourself said you must look outside the Bible and that would include Josephus and Eusebius. Your conclusion that the Catholic Church formed in 400 AD is based on learning from somewhere since you were not there. Explain the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and the Chaldean Christians of today formerly the Nestorians and now part of the OHCAC.

 

[CopticChristian]

Just looking for some more info on this non denominational group

Here is what I want to know. Where does the so called “church of Christ” stand on two issues and their relatives…

Homosexuality and Masturbation

Abortion and Contraception

Where does the “church of Christ” stand on these issues?