Anyone know of Dr. James White?

[Redbandito]

Judaism outdates even the 2,000 year mark and last I heard, they didn’t claim infallibility.

Clearly you misunderstand the difference between the way Christians and Jews have received revelation. Jews had part of the revelation delivered to them and received much of it through the prophets (btw, the prophets were infallible when speaking for God- Dt 18:18-22). Christians received the fullness of divine revelation through God Himself. The Church infallibly guards this revelation.

Seriously though, it is my understanding that only a handful of your beliefs have been infallibly defined. Is this correct?

If it is, how is it helpful to have an infallible magisterium that never infallibly delcares anything?

Also, how do you know for sure what is and what isn’t an infallible teaching?

They are only infallibly defined when it is necessary to do so to protect universally believed doctrine from error that has been introduced. Therefore, God grants this charism to prevent the Church from error, not to guarantee the Church knows everything. The Church is the “fullness of truth” in that it holds and guards the fullness of divine revelation and truth without error." Yet, the Church cannot know what God has not revealed.

 

[Redbandito]

He may have been referring to the fact that the RCC has added to what is necessary for salvation (not sure I said that right). For example, the RCC of 1200 did not need to believe in papal infallibility or the assumption of Mary.

That is simply untrue. Prove this claim.

 

[Redbandito]

Which debate did Madrid “slaughter” him?

The sola scriptura debate where White tried all sorts of tactics to keep from responding to Madrid’s points.

 

[Reformed1]

That is simply untrue. Prove this claim.

Redbandito,

When did the doctrine of the immaculate conception become binding on Catholics?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Reformed1:

the RCC of 1200 did not need to believe in papal infallibility or the assumption of Mary.

Can you cite a Magisterial Document in the year 1200 to support your claim?

 

[Reformed1]

Can you cite a Magisterial Document in the year 1200 to support your claim?

When did the belief in the immaculate conception become binding on the Catholic faithful?

 

[Reformed1]

Clearly you misunderstand the difference between the way Christians and Jews have received revelation. Jews had part of the revelation delivered to them and received much of it through the prophets (btw, the prophets were infallible when speaking for God- Dt 18:18-22). Christians received the fullness of divine revelation through God Himself. The Church infallibly guards this revelation.

They are only infallibly defined when it is necessary to do so to protect universally believed doctrine from error that has been introduced. Therefore, God grants this charism to prevent the Church from error, not to guarantee the Church knows everything. The Church is the “fullness of truth” in that it holds and guards the fullness of divine revelation and truth without error." Yet, the Church cannot know what God has not revealed.

When exactly were the prophets infallible? Please be very specific and try to avoid ambiguity.

What does it mean to be “universally believed”?

 

[Mannyfit75]

When did the belief in the immaculate conception become binding on the Catholic faithful?

You have to answer my question first. I know the answer to your question, but you have to answer mine first.

 

[Reformed1]

You have to answer my question first. I know the answer to your question, but you have to answer mine first.

Manny,

You know full well I can’t prove a negative so there, you have your answer now answer my question(s).

Let’s use the immaculate conception since it was formally defined in 1854.

Was a catholic living in…let’s say the 3rd century (to better illustrate my point) required to believe in the immaculate conception? Was it a mortal sin if he rejected the teaching?

 

[Mannyfit75]

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).

“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).

 

[Mannyfit75]

I just quoted you Early Church Fathers from the 3rd Century and after. It was a common belief that Christians believe that Mary was immaculate. It was not defined until 1854…just like the Trinity was not defined by the Church until 325 A.D in the Council of Nicea.

 

[Reformed1]

I just quoted you Early Church Fathers from the 3rd Century. It was a common belief that Christians believe that Mary was immaculate. It was not defined until 1854…just like the Trinity was not defined by the Church until 325 A.D in the Council of Nicea.

I didn’t ask for you to defend the doctrine. I asked when it became binding upon the catholic faithful.

So, when did the doctrine of the immaculate conception become binding upon the conscience of the catholic faithful?

Unless I missed something the earliest quote you have was the early to mid part of the 3rd century. Is that when it became binding?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I didn’t ask for you to defend the doctrine. I asked when it became binding upon the catholic faithful.

So, when did the doctrine of the immaculate conception become binding upon the conscience of the catholic faithful?

I already answer that question.

 

[Mannyfit75]

EWTN:

According to this dogmatic definition, it has been revealed by God that Mary was preserved from original sin from the moment of her conception
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 12 June, 1854, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on the Immaculate Conception, this time discussing the dogmatic definition of the doctrine by Pope Pius IX. “We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which asserts that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from every stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and, for this reason, must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful”, the Pope said in his Bull Ineffabilis. Here is a translation of the Holy Father’s catechesis, which was the 23rd in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

1. Down the centuries, the conviction that Mary was preserved from every stain of sin from her conception, so that she is to be called all holy, gradually gained ground in the liturgy and theology. At the start of the 19th century, this development led to a petition drive for a dogmatic definition of the privilege of the Immaculate Conception.

Around the middle of the century, with the intention of accepting this request, Pope Pius IX, after consulting the theologians, questioned the Bishops about the opportuneness and the possibility of such a definition, convoking as it were a “council in writing”. The result was significant: the vast majority of the 604 Bishops gave a positive response to the question.
After such an extensive consultation, which emphasized my venerable Predecessor’s concern to express the Church’s faith in the definition of the dogma, he set about preparing the document with equal care.

Blessed Virgin is free from every stain of sin

The special commission of theologians set up by Pius IX to determine the revealed doctrine assigned the essential role to ecclesial practice. And this criterion influenced the formulation of the dogma, which preferred expressions taken from the Church’s lived experience, from the faith and worship of the Christian people, to scholastic definitions.

Finally in 1854, with the Bull Ineffabilis, Pius IX solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception: “… We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which asserts that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from every stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and, for this reason, must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful” (DS 2803).

 

[Reformed1]

I already answer that question.

Please show me again. When did the dogma of the immaculate conception become binding upon the catholic faithful.

Was it only binding from the 3rd century on?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I underline the bishops because from the previous post, I posted the beliefs held by the Early Church Fathers regarding the Immaculate Conception. It was a common belief as early as the 234 A.D, that Christians believed in the Immaculate Conception.

The Church official made it dogmatic in June, 12, 1854 by Pope Pius IX.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Please show me again. When did the dogma of the immaculate conception become binding upon the catholic faithful.

Was it only binding from the 3rd century on?

“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which asserts that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from every stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and, for this reason, must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful”, . from Pope Pius IX 12 June 12, 1854 A.D.

It was a common beliefs in the 3rd Century, and perhaps earlier. I don’t think Christians were mislead in the 3rd Century. It was also in the third century that the Church declare God as Three Persons but One God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Reformed1]

I underline the bishops because from the previous post, I posted the beliefs held by the Early Church Fathers regarding the Immaculate Conception. It was a common belief as early as the 234 A.D, that Christians believed in the Immaculate Conception.

The Church official made it dogmatic in June, 12, 1854 by Pope Pius IX.

Manny,

Forgive me here because I’m not intentionally trying to be obtuse but I still don’t know exactly when the belief in the IC became binding.

If it was in 234 AD, than the Christians living in 233 AD and earlier did not have to believe it did they?

 

[Reformed1]

“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which asserts that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from every stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and, for this reason, must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful”, . from Pope Pius IX 12 June 12, 1854 A.D.

When I read this it leads me to believe that it wasn’t until 1854 that the belief in the IC became…required for lack of a better term. Is this right?

 

[Mannyfit75]

When I read this it leads me to believe that it wasn’t until 1854 that the belief in the IC became…required for lack of a better term. Is this right?

Compare that with these statements.

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).