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sebestt
Guest
No prob. I hope they can become close again regardless of their religious background and possible differences. 
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catholicmarsh
Guest
No, I mean i’m not attacking the man at all. In fact I said that Im sure the issues are deeper than this and there is always more than one side to a story. However, when I posted what I posted it was after having spoken to people over at his ministry. I do however think it is an interesting look at a person who wont even talk to his sister because she converted. James is known for not shaking hands with the people he debates with and he was quite rude to Fr. Pacwa. Judging a man by the content of his character is not the same thing as “bearing false witness.” I never said anything false about the man. I just don’t find him to be a very nice human being. He is a smart man, much smarter than I am, but the Gospel isn’t about simply scoring points against your opponent. As my priest says “Faith in Jesus Christ isn’t simply about giving mental assent to a laundry list of lofty religious and philosophic ideals, it is about experiencing the reality of God’s love in one’s life through relationship with him and others.”
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catholicmarsh
Guest
You know I’m sure there are many honest calvinists, who are seeking to understand the Bible and God. However many I have talked to, (not all but many) arent really comfortable with the objections that people raise regarding their religious’ beliefs. Especially over at A&O or CARM. You try to ask a genuine question and they go in circles with the logic or try to make it about you. The best explination they have given me when I ask a question is “Well that’s the way it is, or God said so in his Word.” No explination as to how it is logical, or correct, no evidence just “Well God said it” It’s like pulling teeth sometimes. I asked a simply question regarding the problem of Total depravity and I simply got “Well you cant possibly understand because you don’t have the Holy Spirit.” All I want is an answer to my question, not all this bullbaiting! I’m sure there are many of you reformed out there who don’t act this way, but I would say you are the exception rather than the rule. Yes I am generalizing but I have to based on my own experience.
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NPS
Guest
The most fun thing about a James White thread 'round here is seeing him troll into every thread about himself.
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
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catholicmarsh
Guest
Really? LOL somehow I find that extremely funny. Anyway I do believe in showing love and charity to everyone, Mother Teresa once said “often difficult people are Jesus in distressing disguise.” Sometimes I think that applies to me as well.
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sebestt
Guest
Well I do not know who he is and I just now read all the previous posts on this thread. I just personally felt pain thinking that there might be a strained family relationship. If I feel myself having a slight problem with one of my family members I feel very bad regardless of who is to blame or what has happened. We have such little time here and I think it is of extreme importance to do everything in our power to reconcile any kind of problems.
Maybe I am being naive but it is not worth it when all is said and done.
1 Corinthians 13:13
Matthew 18:21-23
Maybe I am being naive but it is not worth it when all is said and done.
1 Corinthians 13:13
Matthew 18:21-23
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catholicmarsh
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Well, I think such people are opportunites to practice charity, patience, forgiveness, peace, and self control. I remember watching a video on youtube where a preacher comes into a Catholic church to disrupt Mass. The people remain calm while the guy is going bonkers and they get up and start singing and drown him out. It was the epitome of class. Jesus said “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good!” Rom. 12:1 The same works with hate and bigotry in all its forms.
youtube.com/watch?v=vNG5ILNWwik
Poor guy needs meds or sumfin!
youtube.com/watch?v=vNG5ILNWwik
Poor guy needs meds or sumfin!
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NPS
Guest
Funny how different people see something like that differently.
In his mind:
Valiant Christian Warrior goes into the dangerous den of lies and faces down the deceptive leader while proudly and loudly preaching the Truth which will pierce the hearts of the deceived!
In parishioners’ minds:
“Who is this nutjob dressed up as a priest and shouting unintelligibly? And people say there’s no anti-Catholicism!”
Bottom line #1:
The poor sap has NO IDEA how much he has hurt his cause of converting Catholics to evangelicalism (or whatever).
Bottom line #2
Dude is lucky he didn’t try that at my parish. He would have been quickly…err…escorted off the premises. (No–not by me. By the time I was thinking about doing something about the loudmouth, five or six of our guys would have already handled it.There are some men in my parish who don’t appreciate that sort of thing.)
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NPS
Guest
Incidentally, any of that “James White doesn’t talk to his Catholic sister” stuff is, at the very least, unneccesary in apologetics. The rudeness factor isn’t really important either. A guy can be a complete jerk and still be right about something. (Take it from me
)
What is important is that White has been often shown to be purposefully unreliable in reasoning and deceptive in his arguments.
It’s not that White isn’t smart. It’s not that White may or may not hate Catholicism. It’s that he’s simply untrustworthy. After reading Sungenis’ point-by-point exposing of White’s falsities, I wouldn’t trust him on any salient point because he is purposefuly deceptive. Whether he does what he does for money or because he hates The Church doesn’t really matter to me. What matters is that he is being purposefully deceptive.
)What is important is that White has been often shown to be purposefully unreliable in reasoning and deceptive in his arguments.
It’s not that White isn’t smart. It’s not that White may or may not hate Catholicism. It’s that he’s simply untrustworthy. After reading Sungenis’ point-by-point exposing of White’s falsities, I wouldn’t trust him on any salient point because he is purposefuly deceptive. Whether he does what he does for money or because he hates The Church doesn’t really matter to me. What matters is that he is being purposefully deceptive.
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catholicmarsh
Guest
Yeah well it may be a personal attack, but I tend to believe that character matters. What motivates him to attack the Church? Is it because he honestly wants others to see the Truth, or does he have some personal agenda to further? It may also be poisoning the well on my part, but I think how he treats people and his own sister is important. The reason I think it is important because it will influence his behavior in how he deals with people. We all have to keep that in mind. We can’t justify the means by saying “Well so what if I was obnoxious, at least I defended the Bible.” That doesn’t cut it. If we aren’t being transformed into the image of God’s dear son, then there is something wrong. By there fruits you will know them says the Gospel. I tend to believe that, and it doesnt matter if you get up there and speak the Truth if you hate your brother in the process the Bible says “you are a liar and the truth is not in you.”
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NPS
Guest
I understand your points, but I am saying that although he may have a bias against the Church or that he may sometimes act like a jerk in debates, that doesn’t mean he is wrong. Our sightings of obvious bias or lack of charity seem far less obvious to others. His actions will be seen much differently by his supporters than by his detractors, and although we can appeal to those supporters with “judge by the fruit” (etc) they will likely only reply with tales of the Inquisition and priest abuse.
I personally believe that his goal is a simple and obvious one: To make a living off of the hate and suspicion of the Catholic Church. I am actually surprised that more people don’t see through all the bulldookery and realize that.
But my opinion is nothing more than that–an opinion. I couldn’t get a supporter of his to believe that no matter how hard I try. I think, though, that some of those who are sort of on the fence about White v. Catholicism might read some deconstructions of White’s arguments such as the Sungenis one I mentioned earlier and be persuaded that the guy is disengenuous.
I personally believe that his goal is a simple and obvious one: To make a living off of the hate and suspicion of the Catholic Church. I am actually surprised that more people don’t see through all the bulldookery and realize that.
But my opinion is nothing more than that–an opinion. I couldn’t get a supporter of his to believe that no matter how hard I try. I think, though, that some of those who are sort of on the fence about White v. Catholicism might read some deconstructions of White’s arguments such as the Sungenis one I mentioned earlier and be persuaded that the guy is disengenuous.
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5pintLutheran
Guest
I have his website bookmarked, and have seen most, if not all of his arguments against RC apologists and doctrine. It’s really not scholarly work, but has anti-Catholic, and anything not Reformed Calvinist Baptist written on it. When I first started going to his site, I was blasted by all the “wrongdoings” and “error” that Catholicism had to offer (In white’s opinon). I see now that he lets nothing slip through the Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Soli Deo Gloria, Sola Gratia, and Solus Christus filter (It’s in gold at the top of his site).
What I’ve gathered is that White can make what he’s saying sound like the gospel itself, but it’s only his view and he doesn’t see that the ECF were Catholic. I now see why his sister left the Reformed side to embrace Catholicism, and after she did… He belittled her for it! My advice is to take what he says with a BIG grain of salt. Great speaker, but brutish apologist.
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justinthemartyr
Guest
After listening to the White-Akins debate twice, i had to email Mr. White.
I have been in an email discussion with him for awhile and it is amazing how someone can be so close to understanding the Catholic teachings, and still misunderstand them. This seems to be because he came into the whole process from a post 16th century lens and looked back, instead of looking through a first century lens and working forward. he is stuck in his premeditated thought of protestant theology, especially sola scriptura and sola fide.
He is truly anti catholic and reads his osurces that way when utilizing catholic texts.
He also uses anti catholic protestant authors to back up his claims against the fathers of the church and want sme to read Lightfoot and others whom i do not care to read. I was protestant to the fullest and was very anti Catholic as a protestant, as I was taught to be. It was God who led me to the church with some helpful nudges from loving Catholics and a lot of study of the fathers of the church.
We must pray for Mr. White to stop looking at the church from 1 inch in front of the canvas and step back about 20 steps and open his eyes to the big picture.
I also believe that this type of behaviour can be a self preservation technique built into the human ego. He obviously would have to admit he was not correct for all of those years, and would have to apologise, and then he would lose his “job” as a minister. This would be very threatening for someone’s ego and reputation. At least for his.
I have been in an email discussion with him for awhile and it is amazing how someone can be so close to understanding the Catholic teachings, and still misunderstand them. This seems to be because he came into the whole process from a post 16th century lens and looked back, instead of looking through a first century lens and working forward. he is stuck in his premeditated thought of protestant theology, especially sola scriptura and sola fide.
He is truly anti catholic and reads his osurces that way when utilizing catholic texts.
He also uses anti catholic protestant authors to back up his claims against the fathers of the church and want sme to read Lightfoot and others whom i do not care to read. I was protestant to the fullest and was very anti Catholic as a protestant, as I was taught to be. It was God who led me to the church with some helpful nudges from loving Catholics and a lot of study of the fathers of the church.
We must pray for Mr. White to stop looking at the church from 1 inch in front of the canvas and step back about 20 steps and open his eyes to the big picture.
I also believe that this type of behaviour can be a self preservation technique built into the human ego. He obviously would have to admit he was not correct for all of those years, and would have to apologise, and then he would lose his “job” as a minister. This would be very threatening for someone’s ego and reputation. At least for his.
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