Anyone on here read Poem of the Mangod?

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Thomasbradley312

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I’ve been slowly reading it. What fascinates me is that the stars alignment at the scene she sees the Nativity is actually how they would have been around the birth of Christ.
 
Yah but I mean , the whole apparitions of the Divine Mercy were condemned by the Church for years as well.
 
I read parts of Poem of the Mangod. There was some vivid imagery that was impressive. I’m not sure about if it adhered to the doctrine of the Church. I was not really looking for that at the time I read it. It was a great mystical writing in the sense that it gave some insight into the life of Christ. The Glories of Mary was a great one, also.
 
thistle said:
Yah but I mean , the whole apparitions of the Divine Mercy were condemned by the Church for years as well.
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Are you referring to Sister Faustina or Maria Valtorta?

As far as I am aware, Sister Faustina’s writings have no present prohibition on them.

As for Maria Valtorta, it is true that POMG was placed on the Index, and thus reading POMG was forbidden. The Index has been abolished. We may use our own discretion on what to read and what not to read. We cannot say whether POMG has a supernatural origin or not, but reading it as a work of historical fiction is no problem. I have never read it (I have a copy of one of the volumes from, of all places, the Unclaimed Baggage Center in Scottsboro, Alabama!), but I have heard that Jesus and Mary come across as very verbose and “wordy”, which is not how we usually think of them. The accurate description of the configuration of the stars is something to think about, especially considering that Maria Valtorta was not an educated woman.
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I read two of the books. I couldn’t find anything blatantly wrong. I scoured the book and checked the various negative opinions. I still couldn’t find anything.

Just treat it as a work of historical fiction.
 
Whilst the Index has been abolished it is still morally binding. SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH Notification regarding the abolition of the Index of books - “To respond to the above-mentioned questions, this Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, after having asked the Holy Father, announces that the Index remains morally binding, in light of the demands of natural law, in so far as it admonishes the conscience of Christians to be on guard for those writings that can endanger faith and morals. But, at the same time, it no longer has the force of ecclesiastical law with the attached censure.” (Bold emphasis mine).

IMO, I believe that whilst attached censures no longer apply, as the SCDF deemed it a danger to the faith of Catholics and banned it for those reasons, it remains banned.

IS “THE POEM OF THE MAN-GOD” SIMPLY A BAD NOVEL? EWTN Library. "Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, present head of the Sacred Congregation for the
Doctrine of the Faith (formerly the same office that condemned the
“Poem”), informed Cardinal Siri in 1985 of the "Poem’s condemnation:

After the dissolution of the Index, when some people thought the printing
and distribution of the work was permitted, they were reminded again in
L’Osservatore Romano (June 15, 1966) that “The Index retains its moral
force despite its dissolution.”

More recently (April 17, 1993, Prot. N. 144/58i), he wrote:

“The ‘visions’ and ‘dictations’ referred to in the work, “The Poem of the
Man-God,” are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in
her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in
origin.” "
 
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HomeschoolDad said:
Maria Valtorta?
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Obviously Maria Valtorta.

Yes the Index has gone but it does not mean you are free to read the books that were on it.

I quote Cardinal Ratzinger specifically replying to a question about the Poem of the Mangod.

“After the dissolution of the Index, when some people thought the printing and distribution of the work was permitted, people were reminded again in ‘LOsservatore Romano’ (June 15, 1966) that, as was published in the ‘Acta Apostolicae Sedis’ (1966), the Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution. A decision against distributing and recommending a work, which has not beeen condemned lightly, may be reversed, but only after profound changes that neutralize the harm which such a publication could bring forth among the ordinary faithful.”
 
thistle said:
Yes the Index has gone but it does not mean you are free to read the books that were on it.

I quote Cardinal Ratzinger specifically replying to a question about the Poem of the Mangod.

“After the dissolution of the Index, when some people thought the printing and distribution of the work was permitted, people were reminded again in ‘LOsservatore Romano’ (June 15, 1966) that, as was published in the ‘Acta Apostolicae Sedis’ (1966), the Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution. A decision against distributing and recommending a work, which has not beeen condemned lightly, may be reversed, but only after profound changes that neutralize the harm which such a publication could bring forth among the ordinary faithful.”
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I interpret this, and the other related quote above, to say that we may read these books, if we have removed any danger to faith or morals in doing so. In other words, you cannot read these books for any reason or for no reason at all, but you have to have some good reason, and be sure that it will not corrupt your faith or morals. Some people should not read some books. Other people may.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I interpret this, and the other related quote above, to say that we may read these books, if we have removed any danger to faith or morals in doing so. In other words, you cannot read these books for any reason or for no reason at all, but you have to have some good reason, and be sure that it will not corrupt your faith or morals. Some people should not read some books. Other people may.
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I don’t agree. In my opinion he is saying that while the actual Index has gone everything on and about it remains in force.
 
I think it’s quite hypocritical how so many Catholics swear by Medjugorge, when for all we know that’s just a made up thing and they ignore the Vatican.
The apparitions of Medjugorge say to read the Poem too and that it is true. So if the apparitions are granted authentic the Church will probably have to change its status on this as well.
 
Thomasbradley312 said:
I think it’s quite hypocritical how so many Catholics swear by Medjugorge, when for all we know that’s just a made up thing and they ignore the Vatican.
The apparitions of Medjugorge say to read the Poem too and that it is true. So if the apparitions are granted authentic the Church will probably have to change its status on this as well.
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The local Bishops at Medjugorie declared there is no evidence of any supernatural happenings there and that the alleged seers are frauds.
 
Thomasbradley312 said:
Then why is Pope Francis allowing pilgrimages???

Catholic News Agency

Pope permits pilgrimages to Medjugorje as apparitions continue to be studied​

Pope Francis has given the green light for Catholics to organize pilgrimages to Medjugorje, a site of alleged Marian apparitions, though the Church has not yet given a verdict on the apparitions’ authenticity.
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The article is not totally correct. The Church HAS given a verdict on the apparitions. The local bishops are the competent Church authorities and THREE Bishops Commissions have declared there is no evidence of any supernatural happenings there and that the seers were frauds.
The reason the CDF got involved was at the request of the local bishops because of all the controversy and Catholics divided. Guess who likes to divide the faithful? Well it is not God.
The first action by the CDF after being asked to look at this was to suspend the priest at the centre of the controversy and who was promoting the apparitions.
Until the CDF come up with their conclusions the declarations by the local bishops is the valid and in force decision.
The CDF will simply confirm or overturn the decision which has already been made.
 
I understand but what you are describing here is somewhat of an Orthodox viewpoint of the Church, that Bishops have the supreme jurisdiction of their territories in all matters and the First among them is more of a symbolic nature.( Which for Orthodox would be the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople)
Point I am making here is, even if the Bishops condemned it, had the Pope not said anything this would stand. However if the Pope says it is okay for people to visit, his judgement would in my opinion override that of the local bishops. It seems like a contradicting message the church is giving in this way.
 
If I’m not mistaken, the ‘visions’ have not been approved; the pope and his envoy, Archbishop Hozer, have only said what has been allowed since the 1991 Zadar declaration; only now, parishes and diocese are permitted to lead pilgrimages of prayer. The ban on involvement in activities that take the truth of the visions for granted is still in effect!

All the Pope has to do to keep this as it is is nothing…until he says otherwise, the visions are not recognized as genuine. Plus, Hozer is there in a purely pastoral capacity…he is not investigating the visions. Nor, it seems, is anyone else, at the moment. It has been said that the first ten days ‘merit further investigation’. Nowhere is it said that, at the present time, they are being investigated.
 
Reading material:-

LETTER TO BISHOP GILBERT AUBRY Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH PREFACE this is the Preface to Norms Regarding the Manner of Proceeding in the Discernment of Presumed Apparitions or Revelations

NORMS REGARDING THE MANNER OF PROCEEDING IN THE DISCERNMENT OF PRESUMED APPARITIONS OR REVELATIONS

THE FIRST SEVEN DAYS OF THE “APPARITIONS” IN MEDJUGORJE - Biskupije Mostar-Duvno i Trebinje-Mrkan
Dioeceses Mandetriensis-Delminiensis et Tribuniensis-Marcanensis

University of Dayton - Medjugorje Apparitions: Current Status

Medjugorje, Bosnia - under each listing if you click on [more] a pop-up window appears with the letter etc for you to read, and covers the period from 1991 - 2013.

But as @thistle said - the Bishops have ruled on the matter, which is their authority to do so. Until the Holy See / Pope overturns their rulings, their ruling remains in force.

As stated in the link to the Bishop Gilbert Aubry of 1998 - Pilgrimages were to be conducted privately and were only permitted on the condition that they were not regarded as authentication of events still taking place. So private pilgrimages were permitted on condition, but I am aware of organized pilgrimages organized to go there through travel agencies, which to me does not equal privately. I interpret privately as single individuals/family, not organized tours of groups of individuals.

Personally I don’t think Pope Francis will give approval due to Pope Francis: I am suspicious of ongoing Medjugorje apparitions , but we will have to wait and see what the final report says when it is finally released.
 
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