Anyone Read Oliver Clement's Book?

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Madaglan

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Oliver Clement, an Orthodox Christian living in France, is author of You Are Peter: An Orthodox Reflection on the Exercise of Papal Primacy.

As I look over the few reviews on amazon.com, it appears that many Catholics give the book high ratings. I do not believe the book is polemical, as the late Cardinal Avery Dulles wrote the foreward.

Has anyone here read the book? I’m thinking of buying it, but wonder if it’s worth the purchase, since it’s only 112 pages.
 
Dear brother Madaglan

I have not read it, but I read a review from “First Things” magazine. While it is obviously ecumenical in nature, I’ve read that it does not shrink from pointing out the shortcomings of the papacy down through history. If I have time, I should probably read it. EO books are not on the top of my list to read, but I’ve been meaning to get Soloviev’s book for some time now (I couldn’t remember his name for the life of me, but knew only that he was Russian Orthodox; I finally chanced upon his name on a thread here in the past week).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Clement is an outstanding writer, and is (unlike many modern Orthodox writers) almost always honest and without polemic. His Origins of Christian Mysticism is one of my favorites and he is not afraid to rely on the wisdom of Western (even post-“schism”) Saints.
 
Diak said:
Clement is an outstanding writer, and is (unlike many modern Orthodox writers) almost always honest and without polemic. His Origins of Christian Mysticism is one of my favorites and he is not afraid to rely on the wisdom of Western (even post-“schism”) Saints.
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Yes I’ve read his books and I believe his points on Peter was very informative… too bad most Orthodox flee from recognizing it. 🤷
 
Diak said:
Clement is an outstanding writer, and is (unlike many modern Orthodox writers) almost always honest and without polemic. His Origins of Christian Mysticism is one of my favorites and he is not afraid to rely on the wisdom of Western (even post-“schism”) Saints.
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Interestingly, Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos) uses some quotes from post-1054 Western saints and blesseds–e.g. Julian of Norwich–in his work The Orthodox Way. :cool:
 
chrisb said:
Yes I’ve read his books and I believe his points on Peter was very informative… too bad most Orthodox flee from recognizing it. 🤷
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I’m thinking of ordering it soon and comparing his views with those of the essays in The Primacy of Peter.
 
mardukm said:
Dear brother Madaglan

I have not read it, but I read a review from “First Things” magazine. While it is obviously ecumenical in nature, I’ve read that it does not shrink from pointing out the shortcomings of the papacy down through history. If I have time, I should probably read it. EO books are not on the top of my list to read, but I’ve been meaning to get Soloviev’s book for some time now (I couldn’t remember his name for the life of me, but knew only that he was Russian Orthodox; I finally chanced upon his name on a thread here in the past week).

Blessings,
Marduk
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Soloviev…I’m more of an Abbe Guette person. 🙂
 
Diak said:
Clement is an outstanding writer, and is (unlike many modern Orthodox writers) almost always honest and without polemic. His Origins of Christian Mysticism is one of my favorites and he is not afraid to rely on the wisdom of Western (even post-“schism”) Saints.
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Is that the Roots of Christian Mysticism of his, or something different?
 
With Orthodox you have to understand them carefully. Their masses are valid as ours. However, they are missing many graces.

They do not have;

The Rosary
Stations Of The Cross
Messages from Mary
Divine Mercy Chaplet

As you can see, the Catholic Church is the authority on Earth God has created and given to us.
 
VisionaryOne said:
With Orthodox you have to understand them carefully. Their masses are valid as ours. However, they are missing many graces.

They do not have;

The Rosary
Stations Of The Cross
Messages from Mary
Divine Mercy Chaplet

As you can see, the Catholic Church is the authority on Earth God has created and given to us.
Click to expand...
Hey, here’s someting for the ecumenists, a “Jesus Prayer Rosary”

thinkingreed.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/jesus-prayer-rosary/
 
Dear brother Madaglan,
Madaglan said:
Soloviev…I’m more of an Abbe Guette person. 🙂
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I was an avide Abbe Guette reader before coming to Catholicism. But the more I read the Fathers on my own without “benefit” of his biased commentaries, I was more easily able to accept the Truths of the Catholic Faith about the office of the papacy. As I’ve stated several times before in other places, 95% of my study of Catholicism before I translated over came from studying the sources. I rarely ever read apologetic Catholic material because I did not want to be influenced by second-hand accounts.

My interest in Soloviev is simply to gain an understanding of how someone of the Byzantine Tradition can reconcile his theological perspective to Catholicism.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
VisionaryOne said:
With Orthodox you have to understand them carefully. Their masses are valid as ours. However, they are missing many graces.

They do not have;

The Rosary
Stations Of The Cross
Messages from Mary
Divine Mercy Chaplet

As you can see, the Catholic Church is the authority on Earth God has created and given to us.
Click to expand...
I don’t know how you can conclude this from such a casual list of devotions.:confused::confused::confused:

The Easterns and Orientals have just as many devotions and spiritual exercises from which to gain spiritual Graces as the Latins. In fact, the Easterns have a whole plethora of sacramentals that you’ve probably never even heard of!

Blessings
 
I do not think you have fully understood my words. Receiving graces and obtaining them are two different. There are many graces the orthodox do not practice that the Catholic church has received.
 
VisionaryOne said:
With Orthodox you have to understand them carefully. Their masses are valid as ours. However, they are missing many graces.

They do not have;

The Rosary
Stations Of The Cross
Messages from Mary
Divine Mercy Chaplet

As you can see, the Catholic Church is the authority on Earth God has created and given to us.
Click to expand...
That’s a curious line of argumentation. First of all, the Byzantine Catholics - who are as Catholic as the Pope - don’t have them either. So your argument is directed against fellow Catholics - which is shameful. Secondly, the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics could provide a counter-argument as follows:

"Those Latin Catholics are missing a lot of graces. They do not have:

Akathists
Molebens
Icons
The Protecting Veil of the Theotokos
The Liturgy of the Hours before Mass
The rich monastic tradition of Mount Athos and the “Northern Thebaid”
Many great saints - St. Josaphat of Polotsk, St. Seraphim of Sarov, and many others
A traditional, reverent liturgy that is ever used anymore except by fringe groups who are usually persecuted
And not only is their liturgy is half the length of ours, but they get to sit while we stand the whole time.

So, as you can see, the Orthodox Church is the authority on Earth that God has created and given us."

Frankly, I’m more convinced by that argument - much as I still love the Roman Rite from which I came.
 
Cecilianus said:
What’s wrong with the metanie the way it was?
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Oh it’s fine as it is.

I think this is just a vehicle for Latin-rite Catholics to acquaint themselves with the Jesus prayer using something nearly all of them (should) already own, a traditional Dominican Rosary. I notice earlier there was a reference to Divine Mercy - that was another devotion “grafted” onto the Dominican rosary. The truth of the matter is that there’s no requirement for you to pray Our Father on the large beads or Hail Mary’s on the small beads, you can pray what you want. The Hail Mary is one of the great prayers of the Church - so is the Jesus prayer!
 
Cecilianus said:
That’s a curious line of argumentation. First of all, the Byzantine Catholics - who are as Catholic as the Pope - don’t have them either. So your argument is directed against fellow Catholics - which is shameful. Secondly, the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics could provide a counter-argument as follows:

"Those Latin Catholics are missing a lot of graces. They do not have:

Akathists
Molebens
Icons
The Protecting Veil of the Theotokos
The Liturgy of the Hours before Mass
The rich monastic tradition of Mount Athos and the “Northern Thebaid”
Many great saints - St. Josaphat of Polotsk, St. Seraphim of Sarov, and many others
A traditional, reverent liturgy that is ever used anymore except by fringe groups who are usually persecuted
And not only is their liturgy is half the length of ours, but they get to sit while we stand the whole time.

So, as you can see, the Orthodox Church is the authority on Earth that God has created and given us."

Frankly, I’m more convinced by that argument - much as I still love the Roman Rite from which I came.
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If those who choose to call them self Catholic but not follow the Catholic church or listen to the Pope, they are not valid to argue they hold any truth.

If the Catholic church does not recognise a certain grace or a add-on to the faith then it is not valid. Whatever the Catholic church does she does because it is the authority given from divinity.
 
VisionaryOne said:
If those who choose to call them self Catholic but not follow the Catholic church or listen to the Pope, they are not valid to argue they hold any truth.

If the Catholic church does not recognise a certain grace or a add-on to the faith then it is not valid. Whatever the Catholic church does she does because it is the authority given from divinity.
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The Byzantine Catholics do follow the Catholic Church, and are in full communion with and obedience to the Pope. All of the devotions I mentioned are recognized and encouraged by Rome - some of them (like the Akathist) had indulgences until Vatican II. The only exception is St. Seraphim of Sarov, who was an extremely popular and extremely holy Russian Orthodox saint not yet canonized by Rome (though Pope John Paul II praised him highly - under the name “St. Seraphim of Sarov” - in one of his books - Crossing the Threshold of Hope, I think). A number of Russian Orthodox saints after the schism have been formally canonized by the Pope, most notably St. Sergius of Radonezh (who was canonized sometime in the 1700s).

And actually, there are many private devotions - such as most of the litanies - which are forbidden to practice publicly, but which nonetheless give great graces.

Go to a Byzantine or some other Eastern-rite liturgy sometime, to experience the other lung with which the Church breathes. They are very different in their customs and practices, yet no less Catholic. The Latin Rite is not the only rite of the Church; the dreadful ignorance which Latins often have of their Eastern brethren in Christ is a major cause of schism and a travesty against the duty of charity we owe to Catholics of the East. For Rome’s view of the Eastern Churches, read John Paul II’s Orientale Lumen.
 
John_Larocque said:
Oh it’s fine as it is.

I think this is just a vehicle for Latin-rite Catholics to acquaint themselves with the Jesus prayer using something nearly all of them (should) already own, a traditional Dominican Rosary. I notice earlier there was a reference to Divine Mercy - that was another devotion “grafted” onto the Dominican rosary. The truth of the matter is that there’s no requirement for you to pray Our Father on the large beads or Hail Mary’s on the small beads, you can pray what you want. The Hail Mary is one of the great prayers of the Church - so is the Jesus prayer!
Click to expand...
Okay - the Divine Mercy chaplet doesn’t use the Our Fathers and Hail Maries on those beads either. The chains that Eastern-rite Catholics use are kind of difficult to get - I don’t have one; I have to keep track by the number of times I bow my head (since I’m too lazy to do a full prostration!) A metanie should be 103 prayers though - you’d have to go through the Dominican rosary twice.
 
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