Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn't know God, just ask Ananias!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Giver
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
2 Kings 2:11
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Matthew 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Luke 16
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29"Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30" ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31"He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "

Your post has been answered already or did you miss the fact that people went to heaven?

Genesis 5:24
Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
 
Malachi 3: 1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

Malachi 4:5-6 (New International Version)

5 “See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.”

Matthew 11

9Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10This is the one about whom it is written:

" ‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’

11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15He who has ears, let him hear.

John fullfilled the spirit of Elijah.
 
Daniel Marsh:
2 Kings 2:11
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Matthew 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Luke 16
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29"Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30" ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31"He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "

Your post has been answered already or did you miss the fact that people went to heaven?

Genesis 5:24
Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
Click to expand...
None of what you just showed me says any of those people were in the kingdom of God. Jesus had to come and die for our sins, before anyone could get into the kingdom of God.

You should have learned that in your grade school catechumen class.
 
40.png
Giver:
What kind of question is that?

Jesus told us that no one made it to the kingdom of heaven until after he came and died for us.
Click to expand...
2 Kings 2:11
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

again the Jesus whom you are listening to is WRONG.

God is the King of Heaven, Elijah went to Heaven thats a fact.

I think at best you are just misreading the scriptures.
 
Luke 17:21. Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm
Kingdom of God
Catholic Encyclopedia on CD-ROM
(In Matthew, generally, Kingdom of Heaven).
Click to expand...
In this expression the innermost teaching of the Old Testament is summed up, but it should be noted that the word kingdom means ruling as well; thus it signifies not so much the actual kingdom as the sway of the king – cf. Dan., iv, 28-29. The Greek basileia of the New Testament also has these two meanings – cf. Aristotle, “Pol.”, II, xi, 10; II, xiv; IV, xiii, 10. We find the theocracy sketched in Ex., xix, 6; in the establishment of the kingdom, I Kings, viii, 7: “They have not rejected thee, but me, that I should not reign over them.” Still more clearly is it indicated in the promise of the theocratic kingdom, II Kings, vii, 14-16. It is God Who rules in the theocratic king and Who will avenge any neglect on his part. All through the Psalter this same thought is found; cf. Ps. x, 5; it is constantly insisted that God’s throne is in heaven and that there is His kingdom; this may explain St. Matthew’s preference for the expression “kingdom of heaven”, as being more familiar to the Hebrews for whom he wrote. The Prophets dwell on the thought that God is the Supreme King and that by Him alone all kings rule; cf. Isaias, xxxvii, 16, 20. And when the temporal monarchy has failed, this same thought of God’s ultimate rule over His people is brought into clearer relief till it culminates in the grand prophecy of Dan., vii, 13 sq., to which the thoughts of Christ’s hearers must have turned when they heard Him speak of His kingdom. In that vision the power of ruling over all the forces of evil as symbolized by the four beasts which are the four kingdoms is given to “one like the son of man”. At the same time we catch a glimpse in the apocryphal Psalms of Solomon of the way in which, side by side with the truth, there grew up among the carnal-minded the idea of a temporal sovereignty of the Messias, an idea, which was (Luke 19:11; Matthew 18:1; Acts 1:6) to exercise so baneful an influence on subsequent generations; cf. especially Ps. Sol., xvii, 23-28, where God is besought to raise up the King, the Son of David, to crush the nations and purify Jerusalem, etc. In the Greek Book of Wisdom, however, we find the most perfect realization of what was truly implied by this “rule” of God – “She [Wisdom] led the just man through direct paths and shewed him the kingdom of God”, i.e. in what that kingdom consisted.
Click to expand...
…**So, too, as men realized that this kingdom stood for a certain tone of mind, and saw that this peculiar spirit was enshrined in the Church, they began to speak of the Church as “the kingdom of God”; cf. Col., I, 13; I Thess., ii, 12; Apoc., I, 6, 9; v, 10, etc. The kingdom was regarded as Christ’s and He presents it to the Father; cf. I Cor., xv, 23-28; II Tim., iv, 1. The kingdom of god means, then, the ruling of God in our hearts; it means those principles which separate us off from the kingdom of the world and the devil; it means the benign sway of grace; it means the Church as that Divine institution whereby we may make sure of attaining the spirit of Christ and so win that ultimate kingdom of God Where He reigns without end in “the holy city, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God” (Revelation 21:2).
**
Click to expand...
 
40.png
Giver:
None of what you just showed me says any of those people were in the kingdom of God. Jesus had to come and die for our sins, before anyone could get into the kingdom of God.

You should have learned that in your grade school catechumen class.
Click to expand...
Ok back to square one, 🙂 where did Mose’s and Elijah appear from on the mountain ?

Purgatory ? Hell ? :nope: can’t get out of there.

Limbo ? Paradise ? where Giver ?
 
You assume that listening to the teachings of the church that you are hearing God’s voice. I tell you NO! That is not all there is to hearing His voice.
Click to expand...
So, you are the only one that can hear Jesus? None of us can? Not even the Church? Read my lips. WE ***ARE ***LISTENING TO JESUS. Read that verse again. Jesus Himself tells us ( and He is telling you, but you are making excuses and your own pride is getting in the way) "Anyone who listens to you(He is speaking about His Church, the Catholic Church, not you) listens to me; (are you listening to the CC?) anyone who rejects you (you are rejecting the Catholic Church) rejects me, (you are rejecting Jesus) and those who reject me reject the one who sent me.(you are thus rejecting the Heavenly Father) " You can’t get by that one Giver, no matter which way you cut it. You a mere man is telling us “NO, you are not hearing Jesus.” Who are you to judge? You are simply a man that thinks he is listening to Jesus. We have listened to Jesus. He has told us not to listen to anyone who preaches a different gospel. And that is exactly what you are doing.
You are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong. In fact everything I’m writing is to get people to start to ask Jesus personally what is right or wrong.
Click to expand...
We have asked Jesus and guess what dude, He has told us through His Word that YOU, Robert, are wrong, wrong, wrong.
Who ever told people that Jesus doesn’t personally talk to us had no idea what they were talking about or they lied.
Click to expand...
Whoever said that Jesus does not talk to us? He has talked to us to me. I had an experience many years ago too when I heard Jesus speak to me. Not like I hear other talking to me, but deep in my heart. But what he told me was nothing, absolutely nothing contrary to what HIS CHURCH TEACHES. HE GAVE ALL AUTHORITY TO HIS CHURCH, not to you.
You’re right I’m included with who ever tells you anything about God.
Click to expand...
You are so right on this one Robert, and guess what. As right as you are on this one statement, you are wrong about all you have told us about what Jesus said. We are to test the spirts they have been tested again and again through the Scripture and the teachings of 2000 years not your funky interpretations,and those spirits or voices that you are listening to are NOT of God.
 
Daniel Marsh
I think at best you are just misreading the scriptures.
Click to expand...
The sad thing about it is that “just misreading” the scriptures is one thing. I think we all at one time or another misread them. But when we are told the correct interpretation, and the true meaning of the passage is pointed out to us through the history of the Church, we realize it, take it to heart, understand it and go on our way, happy that we have been corrected. Giver misreads them but he continues to insist he is right, he is right, because Jesus told him so. Even when insurmountable facts are presented to him, he simply refuses, because Jesus speaks to him.
 
I think Giver is misreading the scriptures because he was taught a human tradition by futurists of a dispensational bent. This whole article is worth reading for the purpose of understanding Giver’s confusion. I do not think we would agree with everything the article has to say, but it is a good introduction to the subject of God’s ETERNAL Kingdom.

2 Peter 1:11
and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Daniel 4:3
How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.

Daniel 4:34
Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven: Is There a Difference? By Ward Fenley
Click to expand...
HARMONY OF THE KINGDOMS
Click to expand...
There are several passages that show that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are synonymous. Some futurists believe that there are as many as three kingdoms of God and possibly even more. However, in examining the Scriptures we will see that there is one kingdom that is identified in several ways: two of which are the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven.
Click to expand...
…
Click to expand...
members.aol.com/twarren13/kingdom.html
 
10: When they came to Gib’e-ah, behold, a band of prophets met him; and the spirit of God came mightily upon him, and he prophesied among them.
11: And when all who knew him before saw how he prophesied with the prophets, the people said to one another, “What has come over the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”
12: And a man of the place answered, “And who is their father?” Therefore it became a proverb, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

Nice post Militant.

Peace 👍
 
Despite repeated requests to Giver to address my point he hasn’t so if everyone will forgive me I will repeat it again and hope that Giver will comment.

Following a longer discussion Giver indicated he would never do anyone any harm under any circumstances because that’s not what Jesus teaches.
I asked him if he would stand idly by and not do anything and let his family be attacked and murdered. This was his reply:

**QUOTE
(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Jesus said (John 14:21) “anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”

(Matthew 10:37-39)”Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.”

The will of the Father in Heaven is to love our enemies, and I would do nothing that would displease Him. I trust God, if He didn’t want my family to die, they wouldn’t die, and if they were to die they wood, no matter what I tried to do. What most everyone can’t seem to understand is: (Matthew 6:9) “Our father in heaven, may your name be holy, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven.”
UNQUOTE**

My comment and question to him was this:

That’s really sad that you would standly idly by and not lift a finger to stop your family being murdered especially when **Jesus said ** in John 15:13 “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends”.
The original greek words “for one’s friends” mean for “those whom one loves”. Are saying you don’t love your family enough to be willing to die trying to protect them? Are you saying you will not do what Jesus expects us to do in dying, if necessary, to protect loved ones?

So Giver, are you saying Jesus lied when he told us about laying down our lives for our loved ones or is this a different Jesus from the one you are listening to??
 
40.png
josephdavid:
God’s word is not to be picked apart. It is not to take one side versus the other.

Scripture is to be wholy consumed and the entier Scripture is what we are to live by.

Faith with out works and works with out faith is dead and futile.

If you just use faith alone with in the scripture but ignore the REPEATED scriptures pointing out one must work out their salvation then they are blatently ignoring God. If you do good works with out having faith in Christ then you are ignoring God.

When will we all get this? If I am wrong please tell me. But I have read the Bible serveral times through and yet can not find where it nullifies the other in the case of faith and works. They go hand in hand.
Click to expand...
It’s so nice to hear from you. The argument isn’t about faith vs.
works, but about whether your mortal sins can be forgiven once
you have received the Holy Spirit. Your comment does apply to
this. Just as faith and good works do not nullify each other,
a sinless life and forgiveness of sin also do not nullify each other.
 
Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. 4By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. 8By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. 13These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. 17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. 23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. 29By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as if on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. 32And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets…
 
33who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two,[a] they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated-- 38of whom the world was not worthy–wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

**
Hebrews 11 was posted in reply to Giver. Each of these people were part of God’s Kingdom.
**
 
It appears that Giver is saying “kingdom of”, when he means “Church”. He is saying that those of the OT did not belong to the church. But, they do belong to the household of faith which is where Giver is in error because he does not think that they are in paradise, when scrpture makes it plain that they are — see eariler posts for proof, like luke 16.

But, the outline ( posts 245-6 ) I posted above proves that Isreal is part of God’s household of faith.

Eph 2
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Hebrews 1
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
 
It seems to me, if Jesus were speaking to Giver directly, then Jesus would have told Giver NOT to use the words kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God, when in fact he means the Church.

But, that does not let Giver off the hook for the many times that his Jesus through Giver has contradicted scripture and contradicted the church.
 
40.png
thistle:
Despite repeated requests to Giver to address my point he hasn’t so if everyone will forgive me I will repeat it again and hope that Giver will comment.

Following a longer discussion Giver indicated he would never do anyone any harm under any circumstances because that’s not what Jesus teaches.
I asked him if he would stand idly by and not do anything and let his family be attacked and murdered. This was his reply:

**QUOTE
(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Jesus said (John 14:21) “anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”

(Matthew 10:37-39)”Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.”

The will of the Father in Heaven is to love our enemies, and I would do nothing that would displease Him. I trust God, if He didn’t want my family to die, they wouldn’t die, and if they were to die they wood, no matter what I tried to do**. What most everyone can’t seem to understand is: (Matthew 6:9) “Our father in heaven, may your name be holy, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven.”
UNQUOTE

My comment and question to him was this:

That’s really sad that you would standly idly by and not lift a finger to stop your family being murdered especially when **Jesus said ** in John 15:13 “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends”.
The original greek words “for one’s friends” mean for “those whom one loves”. Are saying you don’t love your family enough to be willing to die trying to protect them? Are you saying you will not do what Jesus expects us to do in dying, if necessary, to protect loved ones?

So Giver, are you saying Jesus lied when he told us about laying down our lives for our loved ones or is this a different Jesus from the one you are listening to??
Click to expand...
I know I have been waiting to see how Giver responds to you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top