Anyone's parishes here following the pope and starting night Christmas has at 10pm?

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That’s true. But at the same time, it’s logically impossible to have “Midnight Mass” at (let’s say) 10 PM.

A parish can certainly have a Mass at 10 PM, but it would not be a “Midnight Mass” it would be a perfectly legitimate “10 o’clock Mass.”

In my own parish, we often refer to “the eleven o’clock Mass” which we have every Sunday.

How would it sound if I were to come out and say “from now on, we will have the eleven o’clock Mass at ten o’clock?” It will start at 10, but we’ll still call it the “11 o’clock Mass.”
I believe that’s labouring the point too much. It has long been the convention of Catholics to call the late night Mass on 24th December Midnight Mass even though the celebration may not commence at 12 midnight. In fact, I find it difficult, where I live, to even find one that begins at that time. However, they’re all listed as “Midnight Mass”.
 
I’m afraid I am not up on my liturgical time designations… Is there an earliest time that Mass during the Night can be celebrated? What about Mass at Dawn? Or do the designations refer solely to the readings without regard to the time of day?
It’s already happening, it seems. Don’t many people say “I’ll get there when I get there”? So Mass starts when it starts. 😉
 
Our parish schedule is

24th December
One of the two churches: 6.30 p.m. Vigil Mass
The other church: 11.30 p.m. Midnight Mass

25th December
The church having the 6.30 Vigil Mass: Mass 9.15 a.m.
The church having Midnight Mass: 11.30 a.m. Mass and 1.00 p.m. Ukrainian Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom
 
😃 I say go for it! 👍

Our previous pastors always used to give the, “Please don’t call and ask what time Midnight Mass is this year. It’s at MIDNIGHT!” speech every year. Beginning last year Mass got moved back to 11:00pm but no one dares to call it “Midnight Mass” (unless they are joking.)

I’m afraid I am not up on my liturgical time designations… Is there an earliest time that Mass during the Night can be celebrated? What about Mass at Dawn? Or do the designations refer solely to the readings without regard to the time of day?
I’m not sure if there is a precise rule on the times.

For the “Mass During the Night” the Roman Missal (the current one) has this to say:

On the Nativity of the Lord all Priests may celebrate or concelebrate three Masses, provided the Masses are celebrated at their proper times.

There are no rubrics that specify those times; only descriptions not actual hours.

The Vigil Mass is celebrated in the evening of Dec. 24, and may be either before or after Evening Prayer I. That’s the rubric in the Missal. It doesn’t permit it in the morning or afternoon, but it does specify “evening.” This is relevant because this Mass was previously celebrated on the morning of Dec. 24. In the current OF Missal, that morning Mass (which was called the Vigil Mass) has been moved to the evening of Dec. 24, and there is a new Mass for the morning–new as far as I can tell.

The other Masses are called “Mass During the Night” and “Mass at Dawn” and “Mass During the Day.” But there are no instructions on how to interpret those, beyond the actual names.

Here’s my opinion: if the Mass happens at night (ie, after it is truly dark, not just evening), then the Mass at night is appropriate. Whereas, if it’s still light out (even twilight) then the Vigil Mass should be used (because it is for evening, not night). The Mass at Dawn would be celebrated at Sunrise, but not any earlier nor later. If it’s late enough in the day that the sun has been up for a while, then I think the Mass during the Day would be called-for. The way I see it is that the Dawn Mass should only be used “at Dawn” but not to be too literal about it–we don’t have to consult a sunrise table and schedule the Mass for the exact moment (although that would be nice). Say sunrise is 6 AM–then I think the 9 AM Mass should be the Day Mass.

Each of the Masses has prayers which correspond to the time of day that the Mass is supposed to be celebrated, so I see it as not-appropriate to use the Mass which doesn’t come at least closest to matching the actual status of the sun at the moment. As I read the rubric “provided the Masses are celebrated at their proper times” tells me that the times aren’t optional but required.
 
Our schedule is Christmas Eve - 4:00, 4:15 (in the gym), 5:30 and midnight

Christmas day - 7:30, 9:00, !0:30, !0:45 (gym) and noon.
 
On the 24th, we have a 7:30 a.m. Mass, the last Advent weekday Mass.

We have a Vigil Mass at 5:00 p.m.

At 11:15 p.m. we’ll have Carols and blessings, followed by midnight Mass with our Bishop (we’re a Cathedral parish).

On Sunday, Mass at Dawn at 7:30, then Mass at Day at 9:30, 11:30, and 5:00 p.m. and Spanish Mass at 7:00 p.m.

Midnight Mass will be jam-packed, standing room only, and not much of that! As will most of the other Masses.
 
FrDavid96;8714099:
Here’s my opinion: if the Mass happens at night (ie, after it is truly dark, not just evening), then the Mass at night is appropriate. Whereas, if it’s still light out (even twilight) then the Vigil Mass should be used (because it is for evening, not night). The Mass at Dawn would be celebrated at Sunrise, but not any earlier nor later. If it’s late enough in the day that the sun has been up for a while, then I think the Mass during the Day would be called-for. The way I see it is that the Dawn Mass should only be used “at Dawn” but not to be too literal about it–we don’t have to consult a sunrise table and schedule the Mass for the exact moment (although that would be nice). Say sunrise is 6 AM–then I think the 9 AM Mass should be the Day Mass.

Each of the Masses has prayers which correspond to the time of day that the Mass is supposed to be celebrated, so I see it as not-appropriate to use the Mass which doesn’t come at least closest to matching the actual status of the sun at the moment. As I read the rubric “provided the Masses are celebrated at their proper times” tells me that the times aren’t optional but required.
Interesting you should say this because I have vivid memories of my first couple of Midnight Masses, before Vat. II, and they were IMMEDIATELY followed by the Mass at Dawn.
 
Interesting you should say this because I have vivid memories of my first couple of Midnight Masses, before Vat. II, and they were IMMEDIATELY followed by the Mass at Dawn.
Well, if you live close to the North Pole, you won’t see much of dawn this time of the year. 🙂
 
Well, if you live close to the North Pole, you won’t see much of dawn this time of the year. 🙂
Didn’t live anywhere close to the North Pole at the time. Can not say that I’ve experienced a Mass at Dawn in decades. Can say quite categorically that I have NEVER experienced a Christmas Vigil Mass, regardless of when Mass was celebrated on Christmas Eve.
 
Our schedule is 5:00 p.m. Children’s Mass on Christmas Eve, 12:00 a.m. Midnight Mass Christmas Day, 8:30 a.m. and 11:00 a.m. Christmas Day (regular Sunday schedule).

I don’t know if we will ever change the time for Midnight Mass, but I know a parish that is near to us has 10:00 p.m. Mass on Christmas Eve, which they refer to as “Midnight Mass”.
 
Interesting you should say this because I have vivid memories of my first couple of Midnight Masses, before Vat. II, and they were IMMEDIATELY followed by the Mass at Dawn.
Yes.

That was one of the reforms of Vatican II–restoring the connection between liturgical rites for specific times to times that are more closely related to the actual time-of-day for those rites. The Council addressed this in Sacrosanctum Concilium (see 88, 94), although the texts were mostly about the Liturgy of the Hours. That’s why I brought up the fact that in the older Missal the “Vigil Mass” of Christmas Eve was actually celebrated in the morning–a “nighttime Mass” (after all, that’s what vigil means; to stay awake) in the morning doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

It seems rather odd today as we look back that a “Mass of Dawn” would be celebrated just after Midnight, yet that’s what happened. I’m guessing that even though one priest celebrated the Mass at Dawn after the Midnight Mass, there was also another Mass at Dawn by another priest (probably in the morning)? Yes or no?
 
There are no rubrics that specify those times; only descriptions not actual hours.
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Each of the Masses has prayers which correspond to the time of day that the Mass is supposed to be celebrated, so I see it as not-appropriate to use the Mass which doesn’t come at least closest to matching the actual status of the sun at the moment. As I read the rubric “provided the Masses are celebrated at their proper times” tells me that the times aren’t optional but required.
Thanks for the info.

And for what it is worth… On December 24t our parish has Mass at 4:00pm, 4:15pm (in the parish center), 6:00pm, and 11:00pm (preceded by carols at 10:30pm. And on December 25th Mass will be at 7:30am, 9:00am, and 11:00am (with the bishop).
 
The thing is, my parish has the Vigil Mass at 8pm when it is already quite dark and midnight mass at midnight. So shouldn’t my parish be using the texts for the vigil mass at 8pm but for those at midnight?
 
The thing is, my parish has the Vigil Mass at 8pm when it is already quite dark and midnight mass at midnight. So shouldn’t my parish be using the texts for the vigil mass at 8pm but for those at midnight?
I don’t understand the question.
 
Here’s my opinion: if the Mass happens at night (ie, after it is truly dark, not just evening), then the Mass at night is appropriate. Whereas, if it’s still light out (even twilight) then the Vigil Mass should be used (because it is for evening, not night). The Mass at Dawn would be celebrated at Sunrise, but not any earlier nor later. If it’s late enough in the day that the sun has been up for a while, then I think the Mass during the Day would be called-for. The way I see it is that the Dawn Mass should only be used “at Dawn” but not to be too literal about it–we don’t have to consult a sunrise table and schedule the Mass for the exact moment (although that would be nice). Say sunrise is 6 AM–then I think the 9 AM Mass should be the Day Mass.
I agree with the principle behind this. However, it needs to be tailored to your location. As I write this it’s 3.45 p.m. and twilight. By 4.30 p.m. it will be completely dark. That means from your suggestion the Vigil Mass would be about now but it’s not really evening according to the time. We could then have the Mass during the Night from say 4.30 p.m. onwards. Tomorrow the sun will probably rise between 8.15 and 8.30 a.m. so that would be a suitable time for dawn Mass. Although today is 20th the times of sunset and sunrise will be very similar on 24th and 25th. As I said at the start of this post I have no difficulty with the principle of your post. It does need to be rationalised to location.
 
Christmas eve, we are provided with two choices at our parish. 8pm (which I’ve been told fills fast and to be there an hour or more early. hehe taking no chances so daughter and I will go 2hrs early 😛 Really just need one seat but don’t want to be standing for the entire mass with her) And then there is another at 10pm.

Christmas Day, mass is the regular Sunday 10:30am and recommended for families with young children. Not sure why … it’s my first Christmas back and I’m just too excited to wait longer than Christmas eve!!!

In joyful hope …
 
I agree with the principle behind this. However, it needs to be tailored to your location. As I write this it’s 3.45 p.m. and twilight. By 4.30 p.m. it will be completely dark. That means from your suggestion the Vigil Mass would be about now but it’s not really evening according to the time. We could then have the Mass during the Night from say 4.30 p.m. onwards. Tomorrow the sun will probably rise between 8.15 and 8.30 a.m. so that would be a suitable time for dawn Mass. Although today is 20th the times of sunset and sunrise will be very similar on 24th and 25th. As I said at the start of this post I have no difficulty with the principle of your post. It does need to be rationalised to location.
Matthew,
That’s exactly why I was careful to post 2 different “explanations.” On the one hand, the actual rubrics which pastors are bound to follow; and on the other hand the part that I described as “my opinion” where I explain my own reasoning, based on the rubrics.
Should it be tailored to the location? No doubt.

Here’s where it becomes difficult to interpret the rubrics:

The Christmas Eve Vigil Mass was previously the Mass of Dec. 24 in the morning. We also had 3 Masses of Christmas: night, dawn, and day.

That’s been changed with the new Missal. The Vigil Mass has been completely moved from the morning of Dec. 24 to the evening of Dec. 24, and it is now a Mass of Christmas (no longer the last Mass of Advent).

Vigil Masses can be celebrated in the evening, or in the night. Nighttime is after all, the proper time for a vigil Mass because the word itself means “to stay awake.”

Therefore, we actually have 2 different (slightly) Masses which can be used at the same time. I don’t see a problem with that, but what I do see a difficulty determining which one to choose.

Let’s take your own situation.
At 4:30 PM, it’s dark. It is “evening” by the Church’s definition, because the time of Evening Prayer is 4 PM. Let’s remember that the English “evening” isn’t the same as the Latin “vespere” which is actually the proper and binding word. It might not be “evening” according to the secular use of the word in English, but it is “vespere” and that’s what counts.

Mass is scheduled for 4:30 PM. Which Mass to use? In my opinion, the Vigil Mass would be the appropriate text, because that’s the one that the Church says is to be used in the evening. I think that’s the best choice. However, if a priest were to look out and say that because it’s completely dark outside, and it’s truly nighttime (by the sun), therefore he uses the night Mass—I would not see any problem with that.

The Missal does say that the priest is obligated to use the Mass texts at the proper time. So we ask ourselves “what is the purpose of that rubric?” I don’t see it as being so specific that we become pharisaic about it; like saying that the dawn Mass must be precisely at sunrise. Instead, I see it as a corrective rubric to tell the priest that he may not follow the previous practice of having 3 Masses, one immediately after the other, and completely disregard the time of day. To be more direct, the priest cannot use the “Mass at dawn” if the time is 1:00 AM; nor can he use the “Mass of night” at 10:00 AM, even if it would be his first Mass of the day. In addition to night/dawn/day, the old Missal also called them the 1st Mass, 2nd Mass and 3rd Mass. From what understand, it was the practice for priests to use these 3 Masses on Christmas and do them in order, but not necessarily follow the descriptions (night, etc). So one priest might have a 9 AM Mass (night) with a congregation and then immediately say 2 more private Masses. As I see things, I believe that’s what the Church is trying to get away from (and has probably already achieved, in reality).
 
Interesting you should say this because I have vivid memories of my first couple of Midnight Masses, before Vat. II, and they were IMMEDIATELY followed by the Mass at Dawn.
I can recall going to pre-Vat II Midnight Mass. We left the house at 10:30pm in order to get there by 11:00 because that’s when the Christmas music program by the choir began. Mass started at midnight and all told lasted nearly 3 hrs, so we got home sometime after 3am, but it wasn’t dawn yet. The next Mass was at 9:00am.
 
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