Anyone's parishes here following the pope and starting night Christmas has at 10pm?

[jayk15]

I don’t understand the question.

I’m sorry. I don’t know how I managed to phrase the question like that. What I meant to ask is whether my parish should use the mass at midnight for the 8pm mass because its already quite dark at that time

 

[MissRose73]

Most parishes in my diocese are doing this for Christmas:

Christmas Eve: 5 pm or 6 pm (with some places designating the early starting Mass as a Youth/Children’s Mass), then a 9pm or 10pm Mass, very few have an actual Midnight Mass start time.

Christmas Day: starting before 10am, no earlier than 8am start

I’ve only went to one Midnight Mass and it was beautiful but it was hard to take a nap during the day to stay up late for Mass then drive home but I managed fine. I prefer to go to a Vigil Mass that starts after 5pm.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Matthew,
That’s exactly why I was careful to post 2 different “explanations.” On the one hand, the actual rubrics which pastors are bound to follow; and on the other hand the part that I described as “my opinion” where I explain my own reasoning, based on the rubrics.
Should it be tailored to the location? No doubt.

Here’s where it becomes difficult to interpret the rubrics:

The Christmas Eve Vigil Mass was previously the Mass of Dec. 24 in the morning. We also had 3 Masses of Christmas: night, dawn, and day.

That’s been changed with the new Missal. The Vigil Mass has been completely moved from the morning of Dec. 24 to the evening of Dec. 24, and it is now a Mass of Christmas (no longer the last Mass of Advent).

Vigil Masses can be celebrated in the evening, or in the night. Nighttime is after all, the proper time for a vigil Mass because the word itself means “to stay awake.”

Therefore, we actually have 2 different (slightly) Masses which can be used at the same time. I don’t see a problem with that, but what I do see a difficulty determining which one to choose.

Let’s take your own situation.
At 4:30 PM, it’s dark. It is “evening” by the Church’s definition, because the time of Evening Prayer is 4 PM. Let’s remember that the English “evening” isn’t the same as the Latin “vespere” which is actually the proper and binding word. It might not be “evening” according to the secular use of the word in English, but it is “vespere” and that’s what counts.

Mass is scheduled for 4:30 PM. Which Mass to use? In my opinion, the Vigil Mass would be the appropriate text, because that’s the one that the Church says is to be used in the evening. I think that’s the best choice. However, if a priest were to look out and say that because it’s completely dark outside, and it’s truly nighttime (by the sun), therefore he uses the night Mass—I would not see any problem with that.

The Missal does say that the priest is obligated to use the Mass texts at the proper time. So we ask ourselves “what is the purpose of that rubric?” I don’t see it as being so specific that we become pharisaic about it; like saying that the dawn Mass must be precisely at sunrise. Instead, I see it as a corrective rubric to tell the priest that he may not follow the previous practice of having 3 Masses, one immediately after the other, and completely disregard the time of day. To be more direct, the priest cannot use the “Mass at dawn” if the time is 1:00 AM; nor can he use the “Mass of night” at 10:00 AM, even if it would be his first Mass of the day. In addition to night/dawn/day, the old Missal also called them the 1st Mass, 2nd Mass and 3rd Mass. From what understand, it was the practice for priests to use these 3 Masses on Christmas and do them in order, but not necessarily follow the descriptions (night, etc). So one priest might have a 9 AM Mass (night) with a congregation and then immediately say 2 more private Masses. As I see things, I believe that’s what the Church is trying to get away from (and has probably already achieved, in reality).

I fully understood what your previous post said. What I pointed out was that the times you gave were more suitable to your own location rather than being times that are best for everyone’s location.

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m sorry. I don’t know how I managed to phrase the question like that. What I meant to ask is whether my parish should use the mass at midnight for the 8pm mass because its already quite dark at that time

One of the corrections in the new (Nov. '11) Missal is that the Mass is now the “Night Mass” instead of “Midnight Mass.” That was another ICEL adaptation instead of a translation. Of course, it “may” be used at Midnight, no question.

Here’s my take on things: at 8 PM (since you just told us it’s already dark), either the Mass at Night, or the Vigil Mass would be appropriate. I would not want to post here and seem like I’m finding fault with any pastor who uses either of those 2 Masses at a time like that–that’s the pastor’s decision to make and I respect whichever choice he prefers.

The point I am trying to make though (and I’m confident that I’m on solid ground here) is that the “Mass at Dawn” or the “Mass in the Morning” would not be legitimate choices at 8 PM on Christmas Eve. I don’t think it’s likely that such a thing would happen anyway.

Keep in mind that in the older Missals (1962 and prior) every priest would celebrate 3 Christmas Masses, and would do so “in order”; the 1st Mass, 2nd Mass and 3rd Mass without actually taking into account the time of day. As Phemie posted earlier, a priest might have Midnight Mass and then immediately begin the next 2 Masses. Just for example, another priest might have all 3 Masses beginning at 9 AM on Christmas day. My reading of the rubric, together with the history of the previous practice, leads me to interpret the rubrics of the current Missal as being “corrective” to say that the previous practice is not permitted. Instead, the Mass texts must be chosen to correspond to the actual time-of-day, at least insofar as this is possible and practical; without being overly literal.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

Our Christmas Mass schudule is:

Christmas Eve: 5:30 pm, 8pm and 11 pm
Christmas Day: 10 am and 1 pm (Spanish)

Since the same choir sings at all the Masses except for the Spanish Mass, the pastor moved the midnight Mass to 11pm so they can get some rest.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

We only have one priest so we will have a 4:3o Christmas Eve Mass and an 11:00 “Midnight Mass” - I think it’s earlier so that he doesn’t have to get a dispensation for saying 3 Masses on Christmas Day as we already have a 10:00 and an 11:30 Spanish Mass…

 

[Phemie]

Yes.

That was one of the reforms of Vatican II–restoring the connection between liturgical rites for specific times to times that are more closely related to the actual time-of-day for those rites. The Council addressed this in Sacrosanctum Concilium (see 88, 94), although the texts were mostly about the Liturgy of the Hours. That’s why I brought up the fact that in the older Missal the “Vigil Mass” of Christmas Eve was actually celebrated in the morning–a “nighttime Mass” (after all, that’s what vigil means; to stay awake) in the morning doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

It seems rather odd today as we look back that a “Mass of Dawn” would be celebrated just after Midnight, yet that’s what happened. I’m guessing that even though one priest celebrated the Mass at Dawn after the Midnight Mass, there was also another Mass at Dawn by another priest (probably in the morning)? Yes or no?

Not in our one-priest parish. There was only the 10 am Christmas Day Mass.

 

[TheMc]

This may have been already brought up, but I’d just remind everyone that the classic “midnight Mass” is actually called “Mass during the Night.”

So for all of those like me who thought the pope was bending the rules, and we shouldn’t unless we need to, fear no longer…

 

[CatholicZ09]

This may have been already brought up, but I’d just remind everyone that the classic “midnight Mass” is actually called “Mass during the Night.”

So for all of those like me who thought the pope was bending the rules, and we shouldn’t unless we need to, fear no longer…

I figured something must’ve changed. I get a liturgy planner from OCP, and they changed the titles to some solemnites/feasts, and I thought that they were just making up some new wording to be creative - you know OCP.

Do these titles coincide with the new Roman Missal or something? This is what I got:

Solemnity of Mary, the Holy Mother of God
Palm Sunday of the Passion of the Lord
Thursday of the Lord’s Supper - At the Evening Mass
Friday of the Passion of the Lord
The Easter Vigil in the Holy Night
Easter Sunday of the Resurrection of the Lord - At the Mass During the Day
Sunday of Divine Mercy
Our Lord Jesus Christ, King of the Universe

I noticed that a lot of the solemnites end off with “At the Mass During the Night/Dawn/Day” now. Is this something new or something that OCP decided to do?

 

[A_G]

Our parish will have a 6pm Mass, which satisfies the Christmas Day Obligation from what I understand.

We will also have a Midnight Mass, which I will be attending.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I figured something must’ve changed. I get a liturgy planner from OCP, and they changed the titles to some solemnites/feasts, and I thought that they were just making up some new wording to be creative - you know OCP.

Do these titles coincide with the new Roman Missal or something? This is what I got:

Solemnity of Mary, the Holy Mother of God
Palm Sunday of the Passion of the Lord
Thursday of the Lord’s Supper - At the Evening Mass
Friday of the Passion of the Lord
The Easter Vigil in the Holy Night
Easter Sunday of the Resurrection of the Lord - At the Mass During the Day
Sunday of Divine Mercy
Our Lord Jesus Christ, King of the Universe

I noticed that a lot of the solemnites end off with “At the Mass During the Night/Dawn/Day” now. Is this something new or something that OCP decided to do?

It may be something new. Those are used in my new Missal.

 

[Chatter163]

I figured something must’ve changed. I get a liturgy planner from OCP, and they changed the titles to some solemnites/feasts, and I thought that they were just making up some new wording to be creative - you know OCP.

Do these titles coincide with the new Roman Missal or something? This is what I got:

Solemnity of Mary, the Holy Mother of God
Palm Sunday of the Passion of the Lord
Thursday of the Lord’s Supper - At the Evening Mass
Friday of the Passion of the Lord
The Easter Vigil in the Holy Night
Easter Sunday of the Resurrection of the Lord - At the Mass During the Day
Sunday of Divine Mercy
Our Lord Jesus Christ, King of the Universe

I noticed that a lot of the solemnites end off with “At the Mass During the Night/Dawn/Day” now. Is this something new or something that OCP decided to do?

These are the literal English-language translations of the Latin names found in the current Missale Romanum. Someone finally decided that those translations should match the original Latin texts, as well.

 

[Chatter163]

Yes.celebrated just after Midnight, yet that’s what happened. I’m guessing that even though one priest celebrated the Mass at Dawn after the Midnight Mass, there was also another Mass at Dawn by another priest (probably in the morning)? Yes or no?

Yes, Father. I do know of some FSSP priests who do this. Though not the normal occurrence, I have seen it done in a venue where a priest would not have occasion to celebrate all three Masses publicly. These are FSSP priests who typically celebrate the traditional one Mass per day (funerals and weddings not withstanding), so they consider permission to offer three separate Masses in one day a great privilege. (The same occurs on All Souls Day.)

In a two-priest situation, this might mean:

Midnight Mass (public) celebrated by Fr. A at midnight.
Mass at Dawn (private) celebrated by Fr. A, immediately after Midnight Mass.
Midnight Mass (private) celenrated by Fr. B, immediately after Fr. A’s private Mass.
Mass at Dawn (public), celebrated by Fr. B at 8AM.
Mass During Day (private), celebrated by Fr. B, immediately after private Dawn Mass.
Mass During the Day (public), celebrated by Fr. A at 11AM.

Of course, the “private” Mass simply means an unannounced Mass, i.e., not listed in the regular parish Mass schedule, but still celebrated at the same church. Anyone who is present is welcome to attend the private Mass, and in practice at least a handful usually do.

 

[FrDavid96]

Not in our one-priest parish. There was only the 10 am Christmas Day Mass.

Then that would have been the 3rd Mass–Midnight, followed by the Dawn Mass, then later the Day Mass. Unless there was another that you didn’t mention? I doubt there would have been a 4th because the norms didn’t allow for that, and it seems unlikely that the priest would have that 2nd Mass immediately after the Midnight one if that would have made for 4.

The point though, is that these Masses under the older Missals (1962 and earlier) were celebrated as “first, second, third” without actually matching them to the time-of-day. One of the reforms (the actual, honest “council truly did say that” reforms) was to restore the liturgical days to be more reflective of the actual times for those Masses (and other liturgy) .

It seems odd to us today to even be discussing the issue of “when should a morning Mass be celebrated?” Yet, before Vatican II, it was regular practice not to have that connection.

 

[taylormcbee]

In the EF you have these:

Hodie scietis (Today you will know) - Vigil (but now said the morn of the 24th)
Domine dixit (The Lord said) - “Midnight” Mass
Lux fulgebit (A Light will shine) - Daybreak
Puer natus (A child born) - Day

How can i tell which mass is which i mean obviously the Christmas mass on the 24th is either going to be vigil or " midnight mass" but the parish i am going to with my girlfriend has 2 masses at 4 pm one in the parish life center and the other in the main church and then at 530 they have a spainsih mass in the PLC and a childrens mass in the church. we are going to the 8 pm "life teen " mass… the reason for all this info is i wanted to look up the readings in my missal i have here at the house and i need to know what mass this is considered to properly prepare myself. Thanks

 

[FrDavid96]

How can i tell which mass is which i mean obviously the Christmas mass on the 24th is either going to be vigil or " midnight mass" but the parish i am going to with my girlfriend has 2 masses at 4 pm one in the parish life center and the other in the main church and then at 530 they have a spainsih mass in the PLC and a childrens mass in the church. we are going to the 8 pm "life teen " mass… the reason for all this info is i wanted to look up the readings in my missal i have here at the house and i need to know what mass this is considered to properly prepare myself. Thanks

Simply put, you won’t know until you get there.

It is most likely that the 4 PM and 5:30 will be the Vigil.

8 PM–could go either way, Vigil or Night.

Again, you won’t know until you get there. The only way would be if the parish bulletin lists the upcoming Mass readings (or parish website, whatever, you get the idea).

 

[Phemie]

Simply put, you won’t know until you get there.

It is most likely that the 4 PM and 5:30 will be the Vigil.

8 PM–could go either way, Vigil or Night.

Again, you won’t know until you get there. The only way would be if the parish bulletin lists the upcoming Mass readings (or parish website, whatever, you get the idea).

I actually had a priest get very upset with me when I asked if the 7 pm Christmas Eve Mass was going to be the Vigil Mass. “Whoever heard of having a Vigil Mass then??” Didn’t want to be rude and ask, “If not then, when???”

The result of that kind of thinking is that I’ve never experienced a Vigil of the Nativity of the Lord. I know that the Canadian Sacramentary recommended that the Christmas Eve Masses that were meant to be the first Masses of Christmas use the Midnight Mass prayers and readings and the Midnight Mass readings were the ones used for all Masses in our parish.

 

[Marie5890]

One of these years, I’m going to put this on the parish answering machine:

“For those of you who are calling to ask ‘what time is Midnight Mass?’: On Christmas eve, the four o’clock Mass will be at six o’clock. The ten o’clock Mass will be at twelve Midnight. On Christmas day, the nine o’clock Mass will be at seven o’clock. The ten o’clock Mass will be at eleven o’clock; and the seven o’clock evening Mass will be at five o’clock.”

Maybe the last Christmas before I retire, I’ll finally do it.

 

[TheMc]

One of these years, I’m going to put this on the parish answering machine:

“For those of you who are calling to ask ‘what time is Midnight Mass?’: On Christmas eve, the four o’clock Mass will be at six o’clock. The ten o’clock Mass will be at twelve Midnight. On Christmas day, the nine o’clock Mass will be at seven o’clock. The ten o’clock Mass will be at eleven o’clock; and the seven o’clock evening Mass will be at five o’clock.”

Maybe the last Christmas before I retire, I’ll finally do it.

Do it!

 

[TheMc]

I say go for it!

Our previous pastors always used to give the, “Please don’t call and ask what time Midnight Mass is this year. It’s at MIDNIGHT!” speech every year. Beginning last year Mass got moved back to 11:00pm but no one dares to call it “Midnight Mass” (unless they are joking.)

I’m afraid I am not up on my liturgical time designations… Is there an earliest time that Mass during the Night can be celebrated? What about Mass at Dawn? Or do the designations refer solely to the readings without regard to the time of day?

I’d say it must be dark.