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goout
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yes, you are in a pickle here…
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AgnosticBoy
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So everything in Genesis should not be taken literally, including Adam and Eve, or that famous Genesis 2:24 passage of two becoming one flesh? If that’s the case, why did Jesus and Paul, the master theologians, believe in these stories?
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goout
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The primary sense of scripture is literal. The words on the page have a literary integrity that must be accepted.
The full meaning may then be literal-ist, and it may also be (frequently is) spiritual in nature. Metaphor, allegory, etc…
You are picking on a huge and complex topic (scripture exegesis, what is inspiration, etc), and you are wildly wrong from a Catholic point of view.
Ok for you to believe what you want, but it doesn’t mean you’ve proven the case you are asserting.
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AgnosticBoy
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Okay. So explain to me the full meaning of Genesis 29:30-33. Do you at least accept the details as they are? You do accept that Jacob was literally a polygamist, correct? Do you accept that God also helped on carry out polygamy? Lets start there.
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littlebird
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Ok. Polygamy is a healthy lifestyle and whatever is the most popular is the best.
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goout
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The passage details life as it is, or as it is recorded. Yes.
Ok.,…
God helped carry out polygamy? Now you are stretching.
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AgnosticBoy
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Clearly, you have not really read my previous posts where many Catholics here have already been giving me their version of deeper meaning on the passage, all of which are mostly in conflict with God’s moral character. I hope yours fare better.
I’m stretching? Hmm. True or False, Does Genesis 29:30-33 state or imply that God wanted a man to love TWO women and impregnate them? Aren’t those polygamous acts?
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Benadam
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No, I didn’t mean that, you or I miscommunicatd. God Was responding to a condition that was creating a problem with a mother of His chosen people. Didn’t want the generating of His people to carry that sin at it’s dawn.
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Benadam
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Polygamy caused Suffering a poverty that he didn’t want at the foundation of his People. Apoverty of the heart. Would have taken generations to heal
Leah was impoverished , God was undoing the damage polygamy was causing. Imo
Leah was impoverished , God was undoing the damage polygamy was causing. Imo
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AgnosticBoy
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While God did not want anyone to suffer from “poverty of the heart”, God also wants that which is morally good and he is PERFECT at keeping in line with his good nature. If polygamous acts are immoral, then you can’t have God wanting or supporting polygamous acts. Therefore, polygamy must be moral for God want to get involved with it.
Besides this, I question why you restrict God’s options to only proceeding with polygamy. Whatever happened to a marriage annulment? Whatever happened to repentance? Whatever happened to punishment for adultery?
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Benadam
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I haven’t seen any reason to think that God supports polygamy and double negative for seeing a reason to think God wants polygamy. It’s like it’s down in The basement hope it never has to be used.
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AgnosticBoy
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Lets get down to the basics. Support means helping out to bring about something.
WHO wanted Jacob to love two women? GOD.
Who ACTED to have Jacob impregnate TWO women? GOD.
You do agree that loving TWO women and impregnating them amounts to polygamous acts, right? And if so, it’s obvious that God helped bring about these polygamous acts which is another way to say he SUPPORTS it, by definition.
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Benadam
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Yeah, but God didn’t do that. I didn’t see anything in their story that looks like God making it happen. Hold on…you already said you accept that God didn’t make this happen. Agnosticboy we’re just going round and round. You know the truth you don’t like it is all. What is it about polygamy that you …you don’t got two wives do ya… I mean I could care a less. I’m not married and not ready for another victim…
Ok you know the truth as the evidence in your two posts below
then you …changed your mind?
When it comes to the polygamy in this story. Laban is the guy who is responsible for the polygamy and reminds me of
John 8
You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father’s desires.
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AgnosticBoy
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God helped Jacob impregnate TWO women:
Genesis 29:31 31 When the Lord saw that Leah was not loved, he [as in GOD] enabled her to conceive, but Rachel remained childless.
Genesis 30:22 22 Then God remembered Rachel; he [as in GOD] listened to her and enabled her to conceive.
Also, look at precisely why God helped Leah become pregnant. It is because in the previous verse it said Jacob loved Rachel more. So now verse 31 says HE helped out because she was unloved, as in he wanted to help her become more loved. Leah understood this, Genesis 29:32 "“It is because the Lord has seen my misery. Surely my husband will love me now.” So Jacob already loved Rachel, but now God is trying to get him to love Leah, that’s TWO women?!
Any more excuses?
I said God didn’t START the polygamous relationship, but polygamy is not just polygamy when the marriage STARTS. It’s also polygamy even after the start and that’s because the ONE man is loving and impregnating TWO women. I already explained the specific polygamous acts that God wanted and ACTED on earlier in this post.
Do you stop calling a marriage a monogamous one AFTER the wedding? Jeez, you’re very illogical.
Laban and Jacob were responsible for the start of polygamy. But Laban was not responsible for Jacob loving BOTH women - God was concerned about that. Laban nor Jacob were responsible for impregnating TWO women, GOd was (although Jacob did the hard work!).
Again, starting polygamy by marrying two women is polygamy. BUT so is loving TWO women and impregnating TWO women.
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Benadam
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God loves everyone
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AgnosticBoy
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God does not love people who take others out of context. You quoted my post as saying “Jacob was responsible” when i clearly said “Laban NOR Jacob was responsible”. I hope you can follow the rules and stop misrepresenting my position.
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Benadam
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AgnosticBoy
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Yes, the fact that Jacob was in polygamy does not mean God approved of it. That’s what the 3rd point in your post means. But the fact that GOD had wants and acts towards the relationship is where the moral justification for polygamy comes in. If God would’ve sat and watched that’s one thing, but wanting a man to love TWO women and impregnate them, are clearly justification for polygamous acts.
You’re really making this too easy. Notice that goout and FatherSabastian haven’t responded to my argument. Instead, they both leave me someone who is low on the Totum pole of reason to waste my thinking on. I’ve debated people with PhDs on this very topic so I know the difference between quality responses and nonsense.
You’re really making this too easy. Notice that goout and FatherSabastian haven’t responded to my argument. Instead, they both leave me someone who is low on the Totum pole of reason to waste my thinking on. I’ve debated people with PhDs on this very topic so I know the difference between quality responses and nonsense.
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Benadam
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Ad hominem statements reveal a lack of substance. You think the dot you mention has a connection, it doesn’t. It’s just one dot. An imaginary dot to boot.
You put the bad guy in God’s place. There is a person in this story that literally did want what you say God wanted. Unfortunate for you he isn’t a dot that connects to God.
The Chosen people of God were victims of Laban, you understand that’s a big dot.
Edit: Text removed for not being charitable.
You put the bad guy in God’s place. There is a person in this story that literally did want what you say God wanted. Unfortunate for you he isn’t a dot that connects to God.
Jacob is a victim of this man you do factor that in? The God of Jacob. That Jacob is a victim. There a substantial dot God punishes Laban in this story. You miss that?
The Chosen people of God were victims of Laban, you understand that’s a big dot.
Edit: Text removed for not being charitable.
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Benadam
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This comparison isn’t to argue a truth about polygamy.
This is to demonstrate the black and white thinking of Agnosticboys argument.
This is to demonstrate the black and white thinking of Agnosticboys argument.
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