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stupidisasstupiddoes
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…On a subject that has no practical application to 99% of CAF members lives since we live in countries where it is illegal. Frankly i wouldn’t want it if it wasn’t illegal either.
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TheButler
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If I had said I was visited by an angel or I heard the Creator’s voice you would label me as schizophrenic. Yet history is littered with saints who had such an experience. They say that a ‘prophet’ is never believed in his/her own lifetime, not that I consider myself a prophet by any means. I’m just an ordinary Jo who sees things differently. Why should I hide that? It doesn’t matter whether or not it is ‘divinely inspired’. Isn’t everyone entitled to have an opinion?
I don’t understand the question. I have visited Hiroshima many times. I’ve met people with deformities resulting from radiation poisoning. There is no need to analyse any ‘reasons behind differences’. Both bombings demonstrate how evil humanity can be and neither can truly be justified, in my humble opinion.
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TheButler
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It’s folk etymology and was meant slightly tongue in cheek.To be fair, well, umm… no.
“Hermeneutic” doesn’t come from “Hermes”, but rather, from the Greek word for “interpret”. The name ‘Hermes’ might also come from that root… but you’re getting the etymology wrong if you say that “hermeneutics” spring from Hermes…
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TheButler
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For me the main message in the OT is that YHWH hates disharmony in humanity, from petty arguments to all out war. Seeing His Creation always at each other’s throats must be gut-wrenching. If my siblings and I have an argument my mum gets so upset and a couple of times she’s wailed ‘If I knew this was going to happen I would never have had you’. For the Creator it must be that seventy times seventy times seventy times seven.
Paul’s warning that the end will be as before Noah when women give up the natural use of their bodies and men are burning in their lust for each other isn’t about LGBT. It’s about disunity and discord. Isaiah asks ‘Why do the nations so furiously rage together?’ It’s the same message again. Nothing displeases the Creator more than humanity not working together. He really doesn’t care about sin. He only wants peace and to see His Creation thrive and evolve for the better.
If two people of the same gender want to marry, why care? If a man and three women want to enter into a contract that works for them, why care? If they are happy then let them be. They’re not hurting anyone. Judging them and condemning them only causes hurt and division. Nobody gains.
If one wants to love the Creator and love each other as Jesus commanded doesn’t that mean zipping it and getting along together?
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stupidisasstupiddoes
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That’s really not a good thing to say to children. Is it possible this is why you value harmony so much?
Yes and no. In terms of LGBT people, i’m not going to throw stones at them. I am going to treat them with respect but I will also answer honestly if they ask me what Church teaching is. The no comes from:
As a principle, we simply can’t allow everything people want to do. Some people want to abuse children and there is no way we can allow this. Now you may say that they are hurting someone so it’s easy to understand why we don’t allow that. So what about taking highly addictive drugs then? Does it hurt anyone the instance someone injects heroin, probably not, but it has many negative knock on effects that do hurt me indirectly. These are just some of the many reasons a utilitarian approach to morality doesn’t work.
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TheButler
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I reiterate that there are two commandments:
- Love the Creator (and His works) with all your heart
- Love each other as we want to be loved
On these two commandments hang all laws and the prophets.
That’s how I see it. I appreciate my views contradict those of many here but I hope you see my intentions are well meant.
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stupidisasstupiddoes
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Ok so what about a heroin addict who can afford their habit without stealing?
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TheButler
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The more pertinent question is ‘Who broke the second commandment by providing the addict’s first fix?’
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stupidisasstupiddoes
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Look what i’m getting at is that people need to make real decisions, today, about the best way for us to live and society to function. Heroin can be legal in all circumstances, illegal or legal in some circumstances. I’m trying to understand how the moral system you are putting forward would inform that type of decision?
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TheButler
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It’s quite simple really.
- Any action that potentially harms Creation (ie the planet, its atmosphere and animal life) is not permitted.
- Any action that potentially harms another either physically or psychologically is not permitted.
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stupidisasstupiddoes
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No, you’d ban all my favourite sports for a start.
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TheButler
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OK. Let’s change number 2 accordingly:
Any action that potentially harms another either physically or psychologically, unless sanctioned by the recipient, is not permitted.
There. That allows for S&M as well.
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stupidisasstupiddoes
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I have to make this my last comment because i fell I’m hijacking a polygamy thread. But that amendment doesn’t seem to work because i could kill you and then claim you consented to it, there’s no way to prove whether I’m telling the truth. I think you need to think through these a bit better, why not start a seperate thread on it?
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TheButler
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Yes, but even me consenting to it would psychologically damage my friends and family. Therefore you killing me would damage my family and we’ve both broken the second commandment.
I think that what we are discussing is all salient to polygamy in the OT. A Christian can’t take the OT in isolation. They must apply the ‘Jesus factor’ in all cases.
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Kei
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If you had heard the Creator or had seen the angels, I’d be more apt to believe you, depending on your fruit.
I have never heard that a prophet is not believed in his lifetime.
My point was the political divisions and nature of those about Hiroshima vs the more peaceful nature of those in remembrance of the tragedy of Nagasaki. Have you ever heard of Takashi Nagai, or The Bells of Nagasaki (長崎の鐘)?
I have never heard that a prophet is not believed in his lifetime.
My point was the political divisions and nature of those about Hiroshima vs the more peaceful nature of those in remembrance of the tragedy of Nagasaki. Have you ever heard of Takashi Nagai, or The Bells of Nagasaki (長崎の鐘)?
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AgnosticBoy
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You mean Jesus was referring to a dispensation in a sense when divorce was allowed from Moses’s time up to Jesus. I can agree with you there if that’s your point but I however see no problem with divorce just as long as it’s done for reasons involving sexual immorality. However, my overall point is that we KNOW that this dispensation was allowed because Jesus clearly said so. He did not say anything about polygamy - in fact, NOTHING in the bible talks about why polygamy was allowed for a time, and perhaps that’s because it wasn’t “allowed”, it was moral all along and is still a moral option.
I have irrefutable evidence of the latter scenario, evidence that involves Godly actions towards polygamists and how the unchangeable moral Law itself accommodated polygamy.
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therese1998
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Perfect, Father!
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AgnosticBoy
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Two points.
- The way polygamy was practiced (without consent) in the Bible came with problems, but those common problems, like jealousy, were not sins.
- You claimed that God never approved of polygamy, but then why did he want ONE man to love TWO women and impregnate them which is what happened in Genesis 29:30-33? Your claim conflicts with clear biblical evidence.
This would be reasonable reasons to allow polygamy, but there are a few problems here. One obvious problem is that it’s pure speculation unless you have evidence to show why God allowed polygamy. I would claim that it was allowed for love for more than one woman. Your claim is just as good as mine because it’s based on speculation.
If what you said were true, then the Catholic Church would allow polygamy in some circumstances rather than banning it completely.
In what circumstance, would it be okay to rape a woman? Or is rape always wrong? In what circumstance would it be okay to reject God?
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therese1998
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- Sarah/Hagar/Abraham: On a personal level, Sarah’s lack of faith, and Abraham’s willingness to go along with it, lead not only to deep personal anguish for all three involved, it also led to trauma for Isaac and Ishmael who were denied the fraternal bond they rightly shared. On a global level, it was the start of deep distrust, murder, war and fratricide which continues right until the present time.
David/Bathsheeba/etc: murder, adultery, a child dead for the sins of the parent(s), rape of a daughter by her half brother, a revenge murder by another brother and attempted murder of a father by a son.
Solomon/harem of wives: Solomon’s heart was turned away from God by the idolatrous practices of his wives…indeed, his kingdom was split in two, both halves warring against each other. There was no reconciliation and both halves were eventually conquered and the land of the Jews was lost to others…an inconceivable tragedy.
- We know that a lack of direct “do not…” from God does not mean that he approves of all actions recorded in the Bible.
- We know that Sacred Tradition goes hand in hand with Sacred Scripture. To rely on one over the other is to have an unbalanced view.
If you would like to speak as an “expert” on the Bible, or be considered learned enough to challenge it, you have to put in the time…and it’s a LOT more than an hour. God cannot be partitioned down to a few memes, a few “bullet” points to make your point for you.
I hope you DO decide to dig deeper into understanding His word…it is a game changer!
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BlackFriar
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Not quite sure of your point.
Jesus doesnt have to explicitly say everything about everythin esp when reasonable people can see congruent analogies for themselves. Jesus said nothing about fornication or contraception either if I am not mistaken.
I am not hung up on hardness of heart toleration argument for Patriachal polygamy. Afterall it petered out significantly before Jesus came along. Maybe lax divorce laws in recent times meant serial monogamy was a cheaper and even better proposition for such hard hearts. Now even the middle class can afford fresh young fertile wives not just the Patriachs.
But it appears tolerated in the old Hebrew culture whatever revisionist explanations Moses and others later provided re God, yay or nay.
Jesus doesnt have to explicitly say everything about everythin esp when reasonable people can see congruent analogies for themselves. Jesus said nothing about fornication or contraception either if I am not mistaken.
I am not hung up on hardness of heart toleration argument for Patriachal polygamy. Afterall it petered out significantly before Jesus came along. Maybe lax divorce laws in recent times meant serial monogamy was a cheaper and even better proposition for such hard hearts. Now even the middle class can afford fresh young fertile wives not just the Patriachs.
But it appears tolerated in the old Hebrew culture whatever revisionist explanations Moses and others later provided re God, yay or nay.
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