Anything in the OT that bans polygamy?

[Dorothy]

Yes, all of us need to pray for discernment and be wary of “messages” that make us sound “enlightened” about something, that is different from the revealed teachings of the Church.

The evil one, from day one, knows a lot about people and things, and they tell one another. That information can sound convincing to a person who is not on guard.

Thanks be to the Lord for giving Himself in the Eucharist, and taught us how we should pray.
With God it is possible to obey what seems very difficult or impossible.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Gods acts are clearly stated and that is my evidence. You want to bring in why he did it which is a separate issue, a SPECULATIVE one on your part.

Would you at least say it was moral for Jacob to love two women since it was what God wanted for him ?

 

[AgnosticBoy]

You clearly have no feel for what was said.

Here’s from official Church teachings:

2387 The predicament of a man who, desiring to convert to the Gospel, is obliged to repudiate one or more wives with whom he has shared years of conjugal life, is understandable. However polygamy is not in accord with the moral law." [Conjugal] communion is radically contradicted by polygamy; this, in fact, directly negates the plan of God which was revealed from the beginning, because it is contrary to the equal personal dignity of men and women who in matrimony give themselves with a love that is total and therefore unique and exclusive."180 The Christian who has previously lived in polygamy has a grave duty in justice to honor the obligations contracted in regard to his former wives and his children.

• Catechism of the Catholic Church
  http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

Where are you and Bend getting your information from regarding polygamy being allowed for certain circumstances? Doesn’t the official Church teaching ban polygamy ABSOLUTELY as I’ve pointed out in the quoted information above?

Seems I might be more aligned to the Church’s position in a sense in that I don’t try to bend the rules by saying there are exceptions, especially with NO evidence to back it up.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

To add to my previous post… Here’s from Msgr Charles Pope regarding polygamy:

“It is also clear that the customs of the ancient Near East also infected Israel’s notion of marriage and that many, at least wealthier men and patriarchs, did often take more than one wife. Thus, we see that sin corrupted what God intended and that, for a time, God overlooked this sinful behavior.”
Source: https://www.osv.com/Magazines/TheCa...18/ArticleID/13156/Polygamy-in-the-Bible.aspx

Where in there do you get that polygamy was a circumstantial sin - as in it is not a sin in all circumstances?

 

[BlackFriar]

2387 The predicament of a man who, desiring to convert to the Gospel, is obliged to repudiate one or more wives with whom he has shared years of conjugal life, is understandable. However polygamy is not in accord with the moral law." [Conjugal] communion is radically contradicted by polygamy; this, in fact, directly negates the plan of God which was revealed from the beginning, because it is contrary to the equal personal dignity of men and women who in matrimony give themselves with a love that is total and therefore unique and exclusive."180 The Christian who has previously lived in polygamy has a grave duty in justice to honor the obligations contracted in regard to his former wives and his children.

Oh dear, such are the traps for young players.
Christian moral law is NOT the same as God’s Natural Law or Eternal Law.

As stated previously (in the technician’s manual, not the user’s manual), polygamy is against the secondary principles of Natural Law not the primary principles thereof.

Even Augustine stated of the Patriach’s:
" …they did not disobey the commandments of the law, since it was not forbidden by any law."

It is forbidden by religious law for Christians though.

 

[Benadam]

Polygamy is evil but it isn’t intrinsically evil. This example was written by a Priest. I am paraphrasing the example. Suppose an isolated society went to war and lost 50% of their men. That would mean it would be impossible for half the women there to marry. The social environment scandalizes these women.The ideal and moral form of marriage is not possible for them. Many would resort to sinful ways of satisfying the urge to reproduce. If it’s possible to determine that the repercussions of their behavior would do more damage to the society than allowing polygamy, it could be permissible. This is a very short summary. This is practically non-existent scenario in the modern world. I thought I posted this example in the thread. I couldn’t find it.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Oh dear, such are the traps for young players.

Christian moral law is NOT the same as God’s Natural Law or Eternal Law.

Natural law should not conflict with moral law. Anything that conflicts with precepts of moral law leads to evil so pointing out a distinction does not prove your point.

"The moral law is the work of divine Wisdom. Its biblical meaning can be defined as fatherly instruction, God’s pedagogy. It prescribes for man the ways, the rules of conduct that lead to the promised beatitude; it proscribes the ways of evil which turn him away from God and his love. It is at once firm in its precepts and, in its promises, worthy of love. "
That’s from the Catholic Catechism…http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm

As stated previously (in the technician’s manual, not the user’s manual), polygamy is against the secondary principles of Natural Law not the primary principles thereof.

Gay marriage satisfies natural law to some degree since it contains only 2 people and therefore allows for mutual respect and dignity. Of course, it fails when it comes to procreation. So BOTH gay marriage and polygamy are not completely in line with natural law, but most importantly they are both against MORAL law.

Why am I arguing the Catholic position better than you? Is it because I’m consistent?!

Even Augustine stated of the Patriach’s:

" …they did not disobey the commandments of the law, since it was not forbidden by any law."

It is forbidden by religious law for Christians though.

That’s his personal interpretation just like your personal SPECULATION that God allows polygamy for reasons x,y,z.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Polygamy is evil but it isn’t intrinsically evil. This example was written by a Priest. I am paraphrasing the example. Suppose an isolated society went to war and lost 50% of their men. That would mean it would be impossible for half the women there to marry. The social environment scandalizes these women.The ideal and moral form of marriage is not possible for them. Many would resort to sinful ways of satisfying the urge to reproduce. If it’s possible to determine that the repercussions of their behavior would do more damage to the society than allowing polygamy, it could be permissible. This is a very short summary. This is practically non-existent scenario in the modern world. I thought I posted this example in the thread. I couldn’t find it.

I asked you for official Church teachings that supports your point and not more personal interpretation. The Catechism indicates that polygamy is banned absolutely, it is against moral law and natural law. If the Catholic Church is willing to break up a man’s polygamous marriage when he becomes Christian, which leaves wife #2, 3, and 4 UNLOVED, then I’m sure they’re willing to leave the surplus of women in your example UNLOVED, as well.

I like that. It’s consistent given the MORAL law according to your Church.

 

[BlackFriar]

Augustine clearly answers the OPs question, with Aquinas’s agreement.
End of story.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Augustine clearly answers the OPs question, with Aquinas’s agreement.

End of story.

Are Augustine and Aquinas infallible? Did you bother to actually read your Church’s position? And please address my rebuttals as well because you’ve been skipping over those points indicating you may not have any answers.

 

[Benadam]

I would say that is your personal interpretation of the Church’s teaching. You think there might be a difference when the moral fabric of an entire population is at stake ? Perhaps an enduring society with a noble moral culture?

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I would say that is your personal interpretation of the Church’s teaching. You think there might be a difference when the moral fabric of an entire population is at stake ? Perhaps an enduring society with a noble moral culture?

Translation: I have no answers to AgnosticBoy’s rebuttals, therefore I will “dodge” his points and continue making SPECULATIVE claims.

 

[Benadam]

Gods acts are clearly stated and that is my evidence

This is your proof that God’s act for polygamy must happen before the marriage? No dots connecting to a divine desire for polygamy unless they happen before the human decisions.

Would you at least say it was moral for Jacob to love two women since it was what God wanted for him ?

I think that is true. Because she is the mother of his children. Not because God wants polygamy.

 

[Benadam]

Translation: I have no answers to AgnosticBoy’s rebuttals, therefore I will “dodge” his points and continue making SPECULATIVE claims.

You didn’t answer the question in my post. Agnosticboy you projected onto me what you are doing in your post. Your rebuttle is: God’s acts are clearly stated? that’s a bit vague isn’t it?

Gods acts are clearly stated and that is my evidence

 

[AgnosticBoy]

This is your proof that God’s act for polygamy must happen before the marriage? No dots connecting to a divine desire for polygamy unless they happen before the human decisions.

Polygamous acts can happen at the start of a polygamous marriage (as soon as wife #2 is added) or DURING the marriage. If God is okay with ONE man loving TWO women and having sex with them then I fail to see why He’d be against someone “starting” polygamous marriage. This is where being nit-picky doesn’t serve you well since you have to invent conditions, speculative ones at that, to justify your point. Polygamous acts are polygamous acts no matter when they take place!

I think that is true. Because she is the mother of his children. Not because God wants polygamy.

Okay, so it was moral for Jacob to love TWO women. But then your statement gets a little contradictory. God wanted Jacob to love TWO women and that’s a polygamous act. So how could you say God did not want polygamy in that case?

Wouldn’t it be more correct to say that he wanted polygamy because Leah and Rachel would be the mothers of Israel? (not that I agree with your ultimate conclusion, but it’s more accurately stated based on what you’ve said)

 

[Benadam]

So how could you say God did not want polygamy in that case?

There is no reason to believe God wanted Jacob to marry two women. There is no indication God had a hand in making it happen. That would indicate His desire.

 

[Benadam]

Wouldn’t it be more correct to say that he wanted polygamy because Leah and Rachel would be the mothers of Israel? (not that I agree with your ultimate conclusion, but it’s more accurately stated based on what you’ve said)

God didn’t reveal them as ‘would’ be mothers. Laban forced Jacob to marry Leah.Jacob didn’t want polygamy. He just wanted Rachel.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

There is no reason to believe God wanted Jacob to marry two women. There is no indication God had a hand in making it happen. That would indicate His desire.

Wow, this is the most obvious case of denial I’ve seen. Lets try again. You agreed that it was moral for Jacob to love TWO woman because that’s what God wanted him to do. The biblical passage is explicit here anyways!

Is loving TWO women, which God wanted, a monogamous act?

 

[Benadam]

Is loving TWO women, which God wanted, a monogamous act?

Why would a human’s will be God’s will to? God’s will should be revealed beforehand for us to know it is His will? that doesn’t indicate God wanted polygamy. That God permits it ok No not even that…God tolerated it, worked within it as faulty as it is.

 

[Elf01]

Just to add a potentially new argument to the mix re the pregnancies.

God explicitly allowed Abraham to impregnate Sarah, despite her being his half sister.

What does that say about incest?