Anything preventing a sperm and egg

[pilots13]

So I’ve see a few threads here about different forms of contraceptives and one of the common lines I hear is “anything that prevents a sperm and egg from joining is a sin”

I had a few questions on that. Is ovulation a sin? I know in the Old Testament there were laws about women being impure for X number of days around their period, but most, if not all, of those are ignored these days by the Church. But under the theory that anything preventing a sperm and egg from joining is a sin, then why is when a woman has her period (discharging an egg) is it not a sin and she has to confess it? Of does she?

Another question is this. My understanding is human life begins at the moment of conception (and I don’t disagree with that). But under that logic, then why is masturbation a sin? Sperm itself can’t create life, only with an egg. So I don’t see how masturbation is in any way on the same level as abortion (and maybe it isn’t in the Church’s eyes). Further more, why is female masturbation a sin? She doesn’t discharge an egg like a man discharges sperm.

Just a couple questions that came to my mind while reading these other threads.

 

[1ke]

So I’ve see a few threads here about different forms of contraceptives and one of the common lines I hear is “anything that prevents a sperm and egg from joining is a sin”

Yes, that may be how people express their ideas. What the Church *actually *teaches, however, is that each act of sexual intercourse between spouses must be objectively ordered to unity and procreation.

I had a few questions on that. Is ovulation a sin?

Do you understand what a sin is?

Ovulation is a natural bodily function. An autonomic one at that.

I know in the Old Testament there were laws about women being impure for X number of days around their period, but most, if not all, of those are ignored these days by the Church.

They are not “ignored”. The ritual laws of Judaism are no longer in effect under the New Covenant. Ritual laws and Divine Law are not the same thing.

But under the theory that anything preventing a sperm and egg from joining is a sin, then why is when a woman has her period (discharging an egg) is it not a sin and she has to confess it? Of does she?

This is nonsensical.

Another question is this. My understanding is human life begins at the moment of conception (and I don’t disagree with that). But under that logic, then why is masturbation a sin? Sperm itself can’t create life, only with an egg. So I don’t see how masturbation is in any way on the same level as abortion (and maybe it isn’t in the Church’s eyes). Further more, why is female masturbation a sin? She doesn’t discharge an egg like a man discharges sperm.

Masterbation is not a sin against the fifth commandment, as is abortion. Masterbation is a sin against the sixth commandment.

Just a couple questions that came to my mind while reading these other threads.

I suggest you purchase a Catechism.

 

[anodos]

So I’ve see a few threads here about different forms of contraceptives and one of the common lines I hear is “anything that prevents a sperm and egg from joining is a sin”

From what I understand of contraceptives (which is not a lot), they do not usually prevent the egg and sperm from joining; rather, they either prevent the fetilized egg from attaching to the womb, or scrape it off after it has attached.

 

[1ke]

From what I understand of contraceptives (which is not a lot), they do not usually prevent the egg and sperm from joining; rather, they either prevent the fetilized egg from attaching to the womb, or scrape it off after it has attached.

That depends upon the method. But, the method of contraception does not determine its morality. Contraception is immoral in its totality.

 

[Leegal]

So I’ve see a few threads here about different forms of contraceptives and one of the common lines I hear is “anything that prevents a sperm and egg from joining is a sin”

I had a few questions on that. Is ovulation a sin? I know in the Old Testament there were laws about women being impure for X number of days around their period, but most, if not all, of those are ignored these days by the Church. But under the theory that anything preventing a sperm and egg from joining is a sin, **then why is when a woman has her period (discharging an egg) is it not a sin and she has to confess it? ** Of does she?

Another question is this. My understanding is human life begins at the moment of conception (and I don’t disagree with that). But under that logic, then why is masturbation a sin? Sperm itself can’t create life, only with an egg. So I don’t see how masturbation is in any way on the same level as abortion (and maybe it isn’t in the Church’s eyes). Further more, why is female masturbation a sin? She doesn’t discharge an egg like a man discharges sperm.

Just a couple questions that came to my mind while reading these other threads.

You need an understanding of female biology. A woman does not discharge a fertilized egg during her period, unless she miscarries (not her fault). The result of the menstruation is to discharge the placental blood lining that was forming during the cycle in the event of fertilization. That lining is nourishment for the baby. Because no fertilization resulted, the discharged blood or “period” is the end of the woman’s cycle and a discharge of the old to prepare for the new cycle. Had fertilization taken place and implantation taken place, there would be no period. There’s nothing to confess as the period is the evidence of no fertilization and implantation and therefore not a sin.

The timing of the ability to conceive varies by women, but generally is some mid-way # of days between the end of the last period and the beginning of the next. Normally, a woman can only conceive when she’s not menstruating – normally, though there might be exceptions so medical science claims.

Ovulation is not sin; it’s normal for a woman. The reason why Jews had a purification process after menstruation was that Jews felt that a menstruating woman was “unclean” and so after her period was over she bathed in a separate bath house to cleanse herself, as per ritual. Some Orthodox still do it.

You are confusing ovulation and the menstrual period.

 

[anodos]

That depends upon the method. But, the method of contraception does not determine its morality. Contraception is immoral in its totality.

Understood! I wasn’t trying to imply that some methods were more acceptable than others; I’m afraid that’s what it sounded like I was saying. I was just thinking about a recent contraceptive ad which claimed that the fertilized egg is not viable until it attaches to the womb, and therefore it can’t be considered as a form of abortion if a drug prevents the attachment. (It sounds ethically confused to me.)

 

[Leegal]

Understood! I wasn’t trying to imply that some methods were more acceptable than others; I’m afraid that’s what it sounded like I was saying. I was just thinking about a recent contraceptive ad which claimed that the fertilized egg is not viable until it attaches to the womb, and therefore it can’t be considered as a form of abortion if a drug prevents the attachment. (It sounds ethically confused to me.)

IUD’s – intrauterine devices prevent implanation. Though now known under another name or names, it’s a foreign object placed in the uterus and it prevents implanation. So, it creates a spontaneous abortion. The morning after pill does the same – creates spontaneous abortion by preventing implantation.

 

[bmullins]

The reason why we believe the way we do is that we believe that the natural function of sexual intercourse between married couples is for procreation. That does not mean that pleasure is not important, but that anytime a husband and wife have sex they should be open to the blessing of a child. Anything that prevents that or attempts to say that we are preventing God from being in control (as if we could do such a thing) is sin.

A contraceptive that prevents the egg from attaching is still in the very same token, preventing the marriage act from being able to produce a child. This is why natural family planning is ok, because even the most careful of planners has to admit that there is still a possibility of having children even if you watch cycles, and take temperatures.

 

[pilots13]

Yes, that may be how people express their ideas. What the Church *actually *teaches, however, is that each act of sexual intercourse between spouses must be objectively ordered to unity and procreation.

Yes, I understand that when a married couple have sex they should always be open to the possibility of kids. This was just my setup sentence for the rest of my post.

Do you understand what a sin is?

No, after going to Catholic grade school, high school, and college, no one told me what a sin was

Ovulation is a natural bodily function. An autonomic one at that.

This I also know. Had some biology and health classes in my Catholic education too.

They are not “ignored”. The ritual laws of Judaism are no longer in effect under the New Covenant. Ritual laws and Divine Law are not the same thing.

Ignored, not in effect, potato-patato

This is nonsensical.

No, it’s not. My question is, anything that prevents an egg and sperm from joining is a sin. Hence why having sex with a condom is not allowed. Hence why masturbation is not allowed. But if male masturbation (which is the discharge of sperm which will never find an egg, and can be a natural process in the form of say a wet dream) then why is a period (which is the discharge of an egg which will never find sperm and is a natural process) not also considered a sin? Think of this as more of a philosophical question, and it makes sense.

Masterbation is not a sin against the fifth commandment, as is abortion. Masterbation is a sin against the sixth commandment.

How is abortion a sin against the 5th commandment? Honor your father and mother? What is that fetus doing wrong to it’s father or mother? 6th I understand (for both masturbation and abortion). But 5th?

I suggest you purchase a Catechism.

I’d love to purchase a Catechism and read through it, but I can’t ask the book questions. It normally doesn’t reply to me. I can ask people either here or at my parish (hence, here I am). I’m not the kind of person to just read the Catechism and accept it at face value. I’m looking for the deeper answers as to why things are in the Catechism.

 

[pilots13]

You need an understanding of female biology. A woman does not discharge a fertilized egg during her period, unless she miscarries (not her fault). The result of the menstruation is to discharge the placental blood lining that was forming during the cycle in the event of fertilization. That lining is nourishment for the baby. Because no fertilization resulted, the discharged blood or “period” is the end of the woman’s cycle and a discharge of the old to prepare for the new cycle. Had fertilization taken place and implantation taken place, there would be no period. There’s nothing to confess as the period is the evidence of no fertilization and implantation and therefore not a sin.

The timing of the ability to conceive varies by women, but generally is some mid-way # of days between the end of the last period and the beginning of the next. Normally, a woman can only conceive when she’s not menstruating – normally, though there might be exceptions so medical science claims.

Ovulation is not sin; it’s normal for a woman. The reason why Jews had a purification process after menstruation was that Jews felt that a menstruating woman was “unclean” and so after her period was over she bathed in a separate bath house to cleanse herself, as per ritual. Some Orthodox still do it.

You are confusing ovulation and the menstrual period.

I know bio 101. From Wiki: “If implantation does not occur within approximately two weeks, the corpus luteum will involute, causing sharp drops in levels of both progesterone and estrogen. These hormone drops cause the uterus to shed its lining** and egg** in a process termed menstruation.”

I understand it’s not fertilized (sans miscarriage). My question is, why is discharging an unfertilized egg not a sin as a man discharging sperm when it won’t ever find an egg?

 

[bmullins]

No, it’s not. My question is, anything that prevents an egg and sperm from joining is a sin. Hence why having sex with a condom is not allowed. Hence why masturbation is not allowed. But if male masturbation (which is the discharge of sperm which will never find an egg, and can be a natural process in the form of say a wet dream) then why is a period (which is the discharge of an egg which will never find sperm and is a natural process) not also considered a sin? Think of this as more of a philosophical question, and it makes sense.

Because masturbation by it’s nature is against dignity of life and often involves breaking of the commandment against adultery.

Masturbation is selfish. It’s focused on personal pleasure and not on anyone else.
Masturbation also can be seen as withholding from your spouse the right they have to the marital pleasure as well
Masturbation makes sex only about pleasure, not about the marriage bed or procreation
Masturbation is inherently sterile and cannot produce children, whereas the seed is clearly ‘naturally’ designed for producing offspring, thus it is contrary to nature
Masturbation is often committing adultery in your heart, either through pronography or fantasy in which you imagine yourself doing the act of sex or use visual/imaginary stimulus to achieve self pleasure

In the churches sense of masturbation it is contrary to the dignity of human life. Both your own personal dignity, and the dignity of your spouse or others.

The egg discharging is not something she has chosen to do, she has not produced the egg in order to please herself. Nor has she discharged it on purpose outside of her body in order to avoid getting pregnant. It is not a sin precisely because it is the proper time for it to occur. Now if she could some how ‘force’ herself to have a period in order to lose the egg… then it would be a sin, because she didn’t allow it to happen naturally but purposely and selfishly removed the chance for life to occur.

 

[1ke]

No, after going to Catholic grade school, high school, and college, no one told me what a sin was

Then explain how a natural bodily function, and one that is autonomic, can be a sin.

No, it’s not. My question is, anything that prevents an egg and sperm from joining is a sin. Hence why having sex with a condom is not allowed. Hence why masturbation is not allowed. But if male masturbation (which is the discharge of sperm which will never find an egg, and can be a natural process in the form of say a wet dream) then why is a period (which is the discharge of an egg which will never find sperm and is a natural process) not also considered a sin? Think of this as more of a philosophical question, and it makes sense.

It is completely nonsensical and is not in the least “philosophical”.

Your premise “anything that prevents an egg and sperm from joining is a sin” is flawed and therefore your conclusions nonsensical. This is NOT Church teaching.

How is abortion a sin against the 5th commandment? Honor your father and mother? What is that fetus doing wrong to it’s father or mother? 6th I understand (for both masturbation and abortion). But 5th?

Catholic grade school, high school, and college failed to teach you the ten commandments too I guess.

The fifth commandment is not “honor your father and mother”.

I’d love to purchase a Catechism and read through it, but I can’t ask the book questions. It normally doesn’t reply to me. I can ask people either here or at my parish (hence, here I am). I’m not the kind of person to just read the Catechism and accept it at face value. I’m looking for the deeper answers as to why things are in the Catechism.

Reading the catechism would give you a proper basis upon which to ask questions. The commandments would be a good place to start.

 

[1ke]

I understand it’s not fertilized (sans miscarriage). My question is, why is discharging an unfertilized egg not a sin as a man discharging sperm when it won’t ever find an egg?

Neither type of natural emission is a sin.

Stimulating the genital organs to orgasm is a disordered use of the sexual faculties and a sin against the Sixth Commandment. Its sinfulness has **nothing **to do with “discharging sperm when it won’t ever find an egg.”

 

[JimG]

I had a few questions on that. Is ovulation a sin? I know in the Old Testament there were laws about women being impure for X number of days around their period, but most, if not all, of those are ignored these days by the Church. But under the theory that anything preventing a sperm and egg from joining is a sin, then why is when a woman has her period (discharging an egg) is it not a sin and she has to confess it? Of does she?

Under Old Testament Jewish Law there is a difference between sin and ritual impurity. Menstruation caused a woman to be ritually impure for a period of time. So did nocturnal emission for a man. If a priest sleeping in the temple experienced nocturnal emission, he had to leave the temple by a special set of stairs and be replaced by another priest. Those are instances of ritual impurity, not sin.

Just don’t confuse OT Law with the moral precepts of the New Testament.

 

[pilots13]

Then explain how a natural bodily function, and one that is autonomic, can be a sin.

I’m not saying I think it is a sin, I’m saying based on the anything that prevents and egg and sperm argument, then wouldn’t ovulation be preventing an egg from fertilizing?

It is completely nonsensical and is not in the least “philosophical”.

See my above response. Is that not an If-Then premise? Is that not a philosophical argument?

Your premise “anything that prevents an egg and sperm from joining is a sin” is flawed and therefore your conclusions nonsensical. This is NOT Church teaching.

Hey, I’m just going with what others here were arguing. I don’t believe anything that prevents a sperm and egg from joining is a sin. I don’t believe ovulation is a sin. I’m just saying, people are arguing that point (anything preventing…) and I’m saying I don’t agree cause there are plenty of things (for the lack of a better term) that prevent and egg and sperm from joining (such as menstruation). And explain to me where the flaw in that premise is? I can see the conclusions being that the statement is false, but nonsensical?

Catholic grade school, high school, and college failed to teach you the ten commandments too I guess.

The fifth commandment is not “honor your father and mother”.

Ha, fascinating nugget I just learned from this! (See this is why I come here and banter vs just reading the Catechism). See, I know the commandments, I don’t remember the exact order, but I know what they all are. So when you played the 5th/6th commandment card I googled it to see what it was. And it said 5 was Father and Mother, and 6 was don’t kill. When you called me out on it I googled again.
“The table below shows the Ten Commandments as personally spoken and written by God using the King James translation and the Ten Commandments as changed by the Roman Catholic Church. They believe that their authority stands above the Word of God and that they can change God’s times and laws and God will prescribe to their changes. You will note that they deleted the second Commandment and changed God’s Sabbath to Sunday and split the tenth Commandment into two to get back to Ten Commandments.”
Not my words or opinion, but fascinating to know Catholics use a different set of 10 commandments from everyone else. They didn’t teach me that in Catholic Schools. Hence my confusion on 5 vs 6.

Reading the catechism would give you a proper basis upon which to ask questions. The commandments would be a good place to start.

If I had the time to not just read, but study the catechism to truly understand it, I would. But sadly things like a job, and family, and church activities, etc get in the way of that. I come here to ask the specific questions I have. I don’t pretend to know I’m right or even have a deep understanding of what I’m talking about. If I argue your point, it’s cause I’m trying to get a deeper understanding of things. I see people make comments, it raises questions in my mind, and I ask them here. A lot quicker to get an answer and get feedback from people like (I presume) yourself who have read the catechism here. Isn’t that what these boards are here for? If the answer to every question here was “go read the catechism” then why make a forum vs just a Q & A page?

 

[bmullins]

Not my words or opinion, but fascinating to know Catholics use a different set of 10 commandments from everyone else. They didn’t teach me that in Catholic Schools. Hence my confusion on 5 vs 6.

As they aren’t your words, you should also be aware that they are a misrepresentation of the truth. The Catholics do not follow a different set of 10 commandments, they just break them down different. All of the information that is in the protestant 10 commandments is also in the Catholic one… they are just a different number on the list. We follow the same 10 commandments.

If I had the time to not just read, but study the catechism to truly understand it, I would. But sadly things like a job, and family, and church activities, etc get in the way of that.

I agree. The Catechism is very indepth and there is a great deal of stuff in there. In fact, reading it from cover to cover is a daunting task, let alone remembering all of it. During our Awakening Faith course we used a book called “United States Catechism for Adults”. It does an amazing job of giving a very indepth overview of Catholic belief. I’d recommend that as some really good reading for those who don’t have time to really invest time into the big green book.

 

[1ke]

Hey, I’m just going with what others here were arguing.

As I already pointed out, this is not what the Church teaches.

Not my words or opinion, but fascinating to know Catholics use a different set of 10 commandments from everyone else. They didn’t teach me that in Catholic Schools.

Lutherans use the same enumeration as Catholics.

The Jewish enumeration differs from both the Catholic and the Protestant and Orthodox.

Hence my confusion on 5 vs 6.

I would assume that in a Catholic grade school, high school, and college they would teach the ten commandments as enumerated by the Catholic Church and not Protestant churches.

If I had the time to not just read, but study the catechism to truly understand it, I would. But sadly things like a job, and family, and church activities, etc get in the way of that.

These are, IMHO, excuses. We are all responsible for knowing the faith. It is perfectly fine to ask questions, but one must at least have a starting point.

 

[bmullins]

We are all responsible for knowing the faith.

Knowing the faith doesn’t mean we are required to study the Catechism, but that we should be open to using it as a reference when we have questions. I don’t use my Catechism like a book that I am required to read. I use it more like a reference book that I can go to when I need clarification on the issues.

When I first was exposed to the Catholic church a deacon from a local Parish gave me the tan covered Catechism. I tried to read it from cover to cover. I found myself disillusioned and moved away from the church. I was supposed to know all of that? So much easier to just read the bible I thought to myself. It wasn’t till I realized that the CCC is the key to finding the correct interpretation when mine isn’t in line with the church. That using it and it’s footnotes I can go find not only the church Tradition but why. That helped me immensely.

 

[1ke]

Knowing the faith doesn’t mean we are required to study the Catechism, but that we should be open to using it as a reference when we have questions. I don’t use my Catechism like a book that I am required to read. I use it more like a reference book that I can go to when I need clarification on the issues.

When I first was exposed to the Catholic church a deacon from a local Parish gave me the tan covered Catechism. I tried to read it from cover to cover. I found myself disillusioned and moved away from the church. I was supposed to know all of that? So much easier to just read the bible I thought to myself. It wasn’t till I realized that the CCC is the key to finding the correct interpretation when mine isn’t in line with the church. That using it and it’s footnotes I can go find not only the church Tradition but why. That helped me immensely.

I would give a convert the Adult US Catechism as a start. And would provide the type of one-one-one questioning opportunity they need via RCIA.

The OP presents himself as one who attended a Catholic grade school, high school, AND college. The Catechism should be but a synthesis and comprehensive review of the numerous religion classes the OP would have taken through 16-18 years of Catholic education. It should not be over such a person’s head.

 

[bmullins]

The Catechism should be but a synthesis and comprehensive review of the numerous religion classes the OP would have taken through 18 years of Catholic education.

In my experience so far with the church, having a Catholic education doesn’t equate with being knowledgeable about the faith. Many adults who are coming to the Why Catholic program, the Awakening Faith, and Living the Eucharist are indeed in need of being taught what they were ‘supposed’ to have learned in school.