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htk553
Guest
Protestants and Catholics:
I’m curious as to who you think the woman is in the chapter.
I’m curious as to who you think the woman is in the chapter.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
I agree with this synopsis from the Haydock Bible Commentary
Ver. 1. A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. — A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady[the Virgin Mary]. The Church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet; and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions. (Challoner) — Under the figure of a woman and of a dragon, are represented the various attempts of Satan to undermine the Church. — On her head…twelve stars, her doctrine being delivered by the twelve apostles and their successors. (Witham)
The Blessed Virgin Mary. This takes me back to a reflection in the Rosary
Ver. 1. A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. — A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady[the Virgin Mary]. The Church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet; and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions. (Challoner) — Under the figure of a woman and of a dragon, are represented the various attempts of Satan to undermine the Church. — On her head…twelve stars, her doctrine being delivered by the twelve apostles and their successors. (Witham)
The Blessed Virgin Mary. This takes me back to a reflection in the Rosary
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SemperReformada
Guest
I have a question.
Oftentimes Rev 12 is offered as a proof text for the assumption of Mary which is the belief that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. I think I have that right.
Let’s assume that the woman is Mary.
I don’t understand how if follows that this proves the assumption, ie. that Mary’s body was assumed into heaven. I haven’t met many folks who doubt that Mary is in heaven but like me, many reject the assumption.
This will probably derail the thread and for that I apologize but I have wondered about this for some time.
There are other humans depicted as being in heaven in Revelations and we don’t assume they have all been assumed body and soul.
Oftentimes Rev 12 is offered as a proof text for the assumption of Mary which is the belief that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. I think I have that right.
Let’s assume that the woman is Mary.
I don’t understand how if follows that this proves the assumption, ie. that Mary’s body was assumed into heaven. I haven’t met many folks who doubt that Mary is in heaven but like me, many reject the assumption.
This will probably derail the thread and for that I apologize but I have wondered about this for some time.
There are other humans depicted as being in heaven in Revelations and we don’t assume they have all been assumed body and soul.
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htk553
Guest
the commentary on the 1941 and 1960 Douay versions I have echo the same synopsis.
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htk553
Guest
Don’t worry about derailing
Unfortunately I can’t answer the question you raised as I am new to all of this. I am curious to see the answer though.If you don’t mind Semper, could you tell me what your thoughts are as to who the woman is please? I would like to see a Protestant’s view of it
Thank you
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SemperReformada
Guest
I tend to think the woman is the church but I understand why someone could see the woman as Mary.Don’t worry about derailing
If you don’t mind Semper, could you tell me what your thoughts are as to who the woman is please? I would like to see a Protestant’s view of it
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Pax
Guest
The woman in Revelation 12 refers to Mary, refers to the church, and refers to Israel. Apocalyptic writings usually have many levels of meaning and this one is a good example. The narrative does not fit anyone of the three perfectly but seems to apply to all. Here is why it applies to Mary:
At the end of Chapter eleven in verse 11 scripture says:
In Rev 12 we see three individuals. We see the woman, her son who will rule with the rod of iron[Jesus], and we see Satan the ancient serpent.
This all very telling and directs us to the woman as Mary on that particular level of the apocalyptic writing.
As far as the assumption is concerned it should be noted that the woman described in heaven has a body. Her body is clothed with the sun, she has a crown on her head, and the moon is beneath her feet. This is indicative of the woman being bodily in heaven. Likewise, John is the author of the book of Revelation and he is the disciple whom Jesus loved, and that Jesus said Mary was to take as her son. The woman in Revelation is said to have offspring and they are described as “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”[verse17]
Just as John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was taken as Mary’s son, so also all Christians are loved by Jesus and are sons and daughters of Mary as they are sons and daughters of Israel and the Church. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and like Jesus we are sons and daughters of Mary.
I hope this helps.
At the end of Chapter eleven in verse 11 scripture says:
There are six parallels in 2 Samuel to Luke Chapter one that connect the Ark and Mary. I can give those in another post if anyone wants them. The mention of the Ark in verse 11 signals the connection to Mary. Likewise, in Genesis 3 we see a reference to three individuals. That reference is in verse 15 which says:
This quote refers to three “individuals” and they are the woman, her son Jesus[the seed], and Satan.
In Rev 12 we see three individuals. We see the woman, her son who will rule with the rod of iron[Jesus], and we see Satan the ancient serpent.
This all very telling and directs us to the woman as Mary on that particular level of the apocalyptic writing.
As far as the assumption is concerned it should be noted that the woman described in heaven has a body. Her body is clothed with the sun, she has a crown on her head, and the moon is beneath her feet. This is indicative of the woman being bodily in heaven. Likewise, John is the author of the book of Revelation and he is the disciple whom Jesus loved, and that Jesus said Mary was to take as her son. The woman in Revelation is said to have offspring and they are described as “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”[verse17]
Just as John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was taken as Mary’s son, so also all Christians are loved by Jesus and are sons and daughters of Mary as they are sons and daughters of Israel and the Church. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and like Jesus we are sons and daughters of Mary.
I hope this helps.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
The Haydock version is the Douay-Rheims but the version I used was 1859. You probably have a Haydock edition of the Douay-Rheims. Nice isn’t it!!!
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broski234
Guest
Mary, the Mother of God
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broski234
Guest
Well, let me try to explain. It reads that she has a head and feet. That would be indicative of a body into heaven, wouldn’t it? Aren’t our bodies supposed to rise on the Last Day? Is it unbiblical to believe that she could have been assumed into heaven? After all Elijah and Enoch were!
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htk553
Guest
Yes it is!!
Very true. Mary could have been assumed because with God all things are possible.
Not trying to pick on Protestants or other faiths, but another thing brought up to me, by people of other faiths, is that “Mary could not have been born without sin. She is of the flesh and a descendant of Eve”. I do not agree with this. As I stated before, with God all things are possible.
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quasimodo
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Pax is right, again
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ziapueblo
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SemperReformada
Guest
Thanks for your post. A few other poster share your view that since the woman in Rev 12 is described w/ a crown on her head and the moon beneath her feet that her body must be in heaven too. Sounds pretty straightforward.
It would seem that you guys are being a littlel inconsistent though. For example, we see in the book of Revelations other people meeting the same criteria (described as having body parts) yet I don’t think you believe they have been assumed in heaven too.
Many Catholics offer Revelations 12 as scriptural proof that Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul because Rev 12 describes Mary has having feet and a head.
From Rev 4 and Rev 7 we see that others are also described as having body parts (heads and hands) but yet they aren’t believed to have been assumed into heaven by Catholics (or at least I don’t think anyone makes this claim). I didn’t quote it but later in Revelations 7 we see that the elders fall on their faces in front of the throne to worship God.
Since those of you who are Catholic offer Revelations 12 as a proof text for the assumption, what do you make of the other people described in heaven as having a body. Do you also think that they were assumed? If not why not? From scripture there seems to be as strong an indication that they too have a body just like Mary is described as having.
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SemperReformada
Guest
I don’t dispute that it’s possible. The assumption certainly makes for an interesting convesation but I really don’t understand why your church made this a dogma.
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CB_Catholic
Guest
I have never heard of this proof-text in relation to the Assumption, have never read about it, have never heard it preached, never heard it taught, and I am a cradle Catholic. I wish someone would state where this comes from–I don’t believe it is all that common.
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SemperReformada
Guest
If you read several of the other posts in this thread by Catholics you will see that they seem to be aware of the prooftexting of Rev 12 in support of the assumption. So, it would seem that at least some Catholics use this verse.
Maybe it’s not as common a prooftext as I had thought…
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Pax
Guest
I think you raise a fair question, but it is a question that might not have an answer that satisfies all objections. Once again, it is important to appreciate apocalyptic writing which is filled with symbols and imagery. The interpretation is not easy and not definitive. Your objection illustrates the difficulty.
That having been said, I’ll still give it a shot even though I am not a scripture “scholar” or “expert” on the apocalyptic genre. There are others that would be much better at this than me.
Concerning Rev 4 my Haydock Bibical Commentary says the following:
The imagery here IMHO seems to serve a purpose that does not lend itself to giving much of a physical description to the elders. Likewise as we proceed through Chapters 5, 6 and 7 we see many other images which would not seem to lend themselves to a sense of assumed bodies. We see, for example, the images of the four horseman which are surely angels. Needless to say, it would be improper to assume(pun intended) that the horses were physical horses or that the angels riding them were in the true physical form of men.
In the midst of all of this including your reference to the 24 elders wearing crowns and bearing the bowls of incense, we also see a reference in Rev 6:9 to the “souls” of the martyrs beneath the altar that cry out to God to avenge their blood. Even Jesus in Rev 5:5 is called the “Lion of Judah”. Immediately thereafter in verse six it says this of Jesus: “I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain.” Obviously, this is imagery describing Jesus, but it is equally obvious that it is not intended to tell us that Jesus is literally a physical lamb in heaven after He ascended into heaven.
The context is enormously important. Revelation twelve does not provide an absolute proof text of the assumption of Mary. Nevertheless, the connection to the Ark of the Covenant and the woman points to Mary. The motherhood of Mary to Jesus, is presented by the Woman bearing a son who will rule with a rod of iron. Likewise, the presence of Satan as the third individual and figure in parallel to the three individuals in Genesis begins to point us again to the woman as Mary.
It is because of this context that the description of the woman, that has thus been identified, takes on significance and may be indicative of the assumption as opposed to the examples of the groups of souls presented in Rev 4,5,6 and 7. Their individual identities are not specifically pointed to, and their features are fewer. It would seem that a description of one person including how that person is clothed, described as having feet, and wearing a crown upon her head may be of significance and that the imagery is telling us more than in the cases that lack the specificity of identity and extra details of description.
I fully realize that this is an interpretation on my part, and that one could claim that it is driven by doctrinal understanding. Nevertheless, I believe that the points that I have brought home need to be seriously considered. Nothing is in scripture without a reason, and the added attention and detail to the woman is IMHO significant.
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