Apocalypse 12

[broski234]

There is a true Queen of Heaven. We see this quite clearly in Rev 12:1. “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars…” Let’s see. Theres a woman…She is in Heaven…and she has a crown on her head. I could be wrong, but I don’t think its the maid. No its the true Queen of Heaven, Mary, the mother of the male child who is to rule the nations. We don’t worship Mary, we honor her, just as Jesus does. So, there is absolutely nothing wrong, from a scriptural point of view, in calling Mary the Queen of Heaven, and in honoring her just as Jesus honors her.

 

[Pax]

I have never heard of this proof-text in relation to the Assumption, have never read about it, have never heard it preached, never heard it taught, and I am a cradle Catholic. I wish someone would state where this comes from–I don’t believe it is all that common.

This understanding and use of the scriptures in Rev 12 is actually very ancient. The unfortunate thing is that priests do not present this from the pulpit even on feast days. To me this is hard to explain except that they may be taking a lot for granted when it comes to the knowledge of those in the pews. Good biblical commentaries are helpful in explaining all of the connections and their are many books and tracts available that cover the subject and cite very early sources for this set of understandings.

There is an interesting connection in all of this concerning the miracle of Juan Diego’s cloak and our Lady of Guadalupe. The history of this indicates that when Juan Diego gave the roses to the bishop as a sign from heaven, that the bishop was awe struck by the image left on Juan Diego’s cloak. When he saw it, the bishop immediately made the connection to Revelation 12 and the woman clothed with sun. This teaching and interpretation is one that Church has held for a long time right along side the interpretations that point to both Israel and that of the Church. The Church believes that Revelation 12 points to all three.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

Pax,

I have heard Catholics argue for the immaculate conception before based on the ark typology but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone also link the ark to the assumption. Interesting.

The Church’s understandings concerning Mary are based on scriptures that are intertwined with one another in a way that gives the full picture. The following link will take you to an article on the perpetual virginity of Mary. This article also lends itself scripturally to some of the other teachings on Mary. Read it carefully and I think you will see what I mean.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TALMUD.htm

 

[htk553]

wow Pax!!! Thank you for your posts. Very informative!! :bowdown:

 

[Pax]

wow Pax!!! Thank you for your posts. Very informative!! :bowdown:

Thanks…you’re very kind, but overly generous.

God bless.

 

[climer97007]

Thanks for your post. A few other poster share your view that since the woman in Rev 12 is described w/ a crown on her head and the moon beneath her feet that her body must be in heaven too. Sounds pretty straightforward…

Since those of you who are Catholic offer Revelations 12 as a proof text for the assumption, what do you make of the other people described in heaven as having a body. Do you also think that they were assumed? If not why not? From scripture there seems to be as strong an indication that they too have a body just like Mary is described as having.

As a Catholic, I am not involved in offering proof texts. As a Catholic, I have accepted the gift of faith. This faith I have accepted is the gift of God passed down from generation to generation through Christ by the working of the Holy Spirit in His Church.

Now, with that in mind, what role does a so called proof text have in this discussion? I can’t really relate to such a notion in the first place. I understand that Mary was Bodily assumed into heaven as an article of faith. This is what Christians have always held to be true. This is nothing more or less then the blessed hope that we all have in Christ as members of His Body, the Church. So, that Mary is held in high regard as model of the Church, par excellance, has something of meaning to me and the faith which I have received.

When Jesus said, thankfully, that being His son, or daughter, or father of mother did not rely upon blood lines, I was quite relieved, as Israel held very tightly to a blood line to “prove” who they were as a people, and as individuals. Jesus puts forth the truth when He rightly claims that the one who does the will of His Father are His mothers, sons and daughters. And so, we honor then in Mary one who has done the Will of His Father. And one who can rightly be called Mother of God, Most chaste spouse of the Holy Spirit, Mother of Jesus’ Body, and Mother of the Church.

Indeed, when one stands back far enough to see with eyes of faith the entire plan of God unfolding in time through His Church, one can hardly not see Mary exposed in the words of Rev 12, just as one can hardly not see the Church exposed there for all to see and to adore. And understand, it is not Mary or the church whom we adore, rather, Christ in Mary, and Christ in the Church. For is there anyone living in Christ who can more perfectly say that Christ is in me, than Mary, His faithful mother who did nothing but the Will of her Son and His Father through the working of the Holy Spirit? And is this not what we are all called to do as members of His Body, the Church?

This is not a question of proof texts, or of hands and feet and other body parts in Heaven. This is a question of faith. And Christ is the only answer to that question.

Gene

 

[HTacianas_II]

It is not a person, it is a time of the year. It describes a specific time when the constellation Virgo is illuminated by the sun, while the moon is beneath “her” feet. It is meant to describe to Christians of the first century when, more or less, the time of year that a significant event is going to occur.

Do not confuse this with astrology, as one has nothing to do with the other. People, Christian or otherwise, of the first century watched the constellations the way we would watch television. It describes a time in late summer/early autumn.

 

[Nousername]

Yes it is!!

Very true. Mary could have been assumed because with God all things are possible.

Not trying to pick on Protestants or other faiths, but another thing brought up to me, by people of other faiths, is that “Mary could not have been born without sin. She is of the flesh and a descendant of Eve”. I do not agree with this. As I stated before, with God all things are possible.

It seems so LOGICAL to me that Mary MUST have been conceived without sin and MUST never have sinned. Mary’s human body housed Purity Himself. To have been the sinful vessel of that Purity, is simply impossible. Since Mary held Purity for the duration of her pregnancy, she must NEVER have sinned after giving birth either. Mary’s sinning after giving birth to Jesus, taints the vessel in which purity itself existed. The vessel that carried the pure Jesus could never be tainted by imperfection, especially an imperfection that caused the death of her son…sin.

 

[SeanTom]

The publicly stated belief in Mary’s bodily Assumption into Heaven goes back at least to the sixth century, when St. Gregory of Tours wrote that the Lord Jesus came to earth at the end of Mary’s life and commanded that her holy body “be taken in a cloud into Paradise where now, rejoined to the soul, it rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones, and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end.”

The dogma of the Assumption was never in doubt, but after Pope Pius IX defined the Immaculate Conception in 1854, Rome was inundated over many decades with literally millions of requests for a similar definition of the Assumption. Pope Pius XII answered those petitions on November 1, 1950, when he solemnly declared it to be “a dogma divinely revealed: that the Immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever Virgin, on the completion of her earthly life, was taken up to heavenly glory both in body and soul.”

The reasoning behind the Church’s belief is that since Mary was free from all sin, and the corruption of the body is a cons4equence of sin, she did not suffer the decay of the grave. Furthermore, since it was Mary’s body that brought the Savior into the world, her body should share in His bodily glorification.

The Church has never formally stated whether Mary died, but saints and holy writers have said that she underwent death. St. John Damascene, in the eight century, referred to an “ancient and most truthful tradition” that Mary did die and was placed in a coffin in the Garden of Gethsemani. After three days of singing and chanting by angels, the coffin was opened, but the Apostles “were unable anywhere to find her most lauded body.”

It is striking that there has never been any bodily relics of Mary, nor any attempt to identify her tomb This seems to be a case where Tradition was from the beginning consistent and unanimous. The church believes that Mary died at the age of 57.

Pope Pius XII, in his proclamation of her Assumption, said that our Lady did experience death, but that God preserved her “from the corruption of the tomb.” The Eastern Church celebrates the Feast of the Dormition (Falling Asleep) of Mary on August 14th, the day before the Feast of the Assumption

 

[climer97007]

It is striking that there has never been any bodily relics of Mary, nor any attempt to identify her tomb This seems to be a case where Tradition was from the beginning consistent and unanimous. The church believes that Mary died at the age of 57.

Well, to be accurate, Emperor Marcian and his wife, Pulcheria, requested Juvenal, Patriarch of Jerusalem, while he was attending the Council of Chalcedon (451), the relics of Virgin Mary. According to the account, Juvenal replied that, on the third day after her burial, Mary’s tomb was discovered to be empty, only the shroud being preserved in the church of Gethsemane.

Gene

 

[Nousername]

The publicly stated belief in Mary’s bodily Assumption into Heaven goes back at least to the sixth century, when St. Gregory of Tours wrote that the Lord Jesus came to earth at the end of Mary’s life and commanded that her holy body “be taken in a cloud into Paradise where now, rejoined to the soul, it rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones, and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end.”

The dogma of the Assumption was never in doubt, but after Pope Pius IX defined the Immaculate Conception in 1854, Rome was inundated over many decades with literally millions of requests for a similar definition of the Assumption. Pope Pius XII answered those petitions on November 1, 1950, when he solemnly declared it to be “a dogma divinely revealed: that the Immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever Virgin, on the completion of her earthly life, was taken up to heavenly glory both in body and soul.”

The reasoning behind the Church’s belief is that since Mary was free from all sin, and the corruption of the body is a cons4equence of sin, she did not suffer the decay of the grave. Furthermore, since it was Mary’s body that brought the Savior into the world, her body should share in His bodily glorification.

The Church has never formally stated whether Mary died, but saints and holy writers have said that she underwent death. St. John Damascene, in the eight century, referred to an “ancient and most truthful tradition” that Mary did die and was placed in a coffin in the Garden of Gethsemani. After three days of singing and chanting by angels, the coffin was opened, but the Apostles “were unable anywhere to find her most lauded body.”

It is striking that there has never been any bodily relics of Mary, nor any attempt to identify her tomb This seems to be a case where Tradition was from the beginning consistent and unanimous. The church believes that Mary died at the age of 57.

Pope Pius XII, in his proclamation of her Assumption, said that our Lady did experience death, but that God preserved her “from the corruption of the tomb.” The Eastern Church celebrates the Feast of the Dormition (Falling Asleep) of Mary on August 14th, the day before the Feast of the Assumption

OK. I believe that the early Christians always knew that Mary was assumed into Heaven body and soul…and that this TRADITION was made Dogma in 1950, confirming what the early Christians already knew. HOWEVER, above, the writer says that the The Church has never formally stated whether Mary died, but saints and holy writers have said that she underwent death, (but not bodily corruption.)…The reasoning behind the Church’s belief is that since Mary was free from all sin, and the corruption of the body is a cons4equence of sin, she did not suffer the decay of the grave.

This raises a question…If Mary did not suffer the corruption of the body…because she was sinless,…and bodily decay is the result of sin…Then how could she have died? Isn’t DEATH the result of sin? If Mary was sinless then it would seem that she must suffer NO consequences of sin, DEATH or bodily CORRUPTION. Help!!!

 

[climer97007]

This raises a question…If Mary did not suffer the corruption of the body…because she was sinless,…and bodily decay is the result of sin…Then how could she have died? Isn’t DEATH the result of sin? If Mary was sinless then it would seem that she must suffer NO consequences of sin, DEATH or bodily CORRUPTION. Help!!!

Now don’t get your pants all bunched up. In the eastern church, they call it the dormition of Mary. Even in the east, they do not say that she died. Yet, even in the east they hold to this day that she was assumed bodily into heaven. No question. Just an article of faith. What God does and why are sometimes a mystery and thus require of us a little faith.

The salvation of Christ does not depend upon how or when Mary was assumed into heaven, yet, the converse is yet true. Mary, like us, depended upon Christ for her salvation, her protection from sin, her incorruption and assumption into heaven all depends upon Jesus.

Now, you want to get your pants bunched up in a knot over just how exactly Jesus did this? As if to say that He could not do it? Think of the doubt implied in your question, and of the utter faith that the answer depends upon.

Be at peace, and know that Jesus is God, and that He did this in honor of His most blessed mother, Mary, and that even now, the Church, the body of Christ, still remembers and celebrates her mothers glorious assumption into heaven.

Gene

 

[Nousername]

Now don’t get your pants all bunched up. In the eastern church, they call it the dormition of Mary. Even in the east, they do not say that she died. Yet, even in the east they hold to this day that she was assumed bodily into heaven. No question. Just an article of faith. What God does and why are sometimes a mystery and thus require of us a little faith.

The salvation of Christ does not depend upon how or when Mary was assumed into heaven, yet, the converse is yet true. Mary, like us, depended upon Christ for her salvation, her protection from sin, her incorruption and assumption into heaven all depends upon Jesus.

Now, you want to get your pants bunched up in a knot over just how exactly Jesus did this? As if to say that He could not do it? Think of the doubt implied in your question, and of the utter faith that the answer depends upon.

Be at peace, and know that Jesus is God, and that He did this in honor of His most blessed mother, Mary, and that even now, the Church, the body of Christ, still remembers and celebrates her mothers glorious assumption into heaven.

Gene

Gene
Why would you think I have my pants bunched up in a knot, and that there was DOUBT in my questioning? The HELP at the end was only saying that I DO believe, I DO have faith, I was just looking for an explanation for the question that could make sense, when the question is posed. At times, it is not enough to explain to a person who poses such a question to say…JUST have the same FAITH that I do, that God can do anything. I have that UTTER faith. I only wanted something that would help me explain it to someone who either does not share that faith, or legitimately is seeking to understand. You response was helpful in that it expanded on the ‘just have faith’ answer. It gives it MEANING.

 

[SeanTom]

Nousemame,

You said: “This raises a question…If Mary did not suffer the corruption of the body…because she was sinless,…and bodily decay is the result of sin…Then how could she have died? Isn’t DEATH the result of sin?”

Jesus died and He was sinless.

 

[Benadam]

Nousemame,

You said: “This raises a question…If Mary did not suffer the corruption of the body…because she was sinless,…and bodily decay is the result of sin…Then how could she have died? Isn’t DEATH the result of sin?”

Jesus died and He was sinless.

Many speculate that in order to more fully follow her son she chose to experience the state of seperation of body and soul.

Purely out of love for Jesus.

 

[climer97007]

Many speculat…

I think that this is important. Whether Mary died or not is left to speculation. What remains a glorious matter of faith is that she is not buried here on earth. She was assumed into Heaven. She is alive there now. And the Church has direct experience of this through countless visions, apparitions, and miracles of faith.
Gene