Apologetic help

[asd72]

A person has challenged me to answer a few questions about Catholism, in an attempt to save me from the Catholic Church. I am happy to do so in the hope he learns something in the process.

The first question is: In 1John 1:7 it says the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Why do Catholics need indulgences and purgatory if this is so?

I was thinking I would need to explain the eternal and temporal consequences of sin, the treasury of merit and communion of the saints.

Does that sound right? Am I missing anything?

 

[juno24]

A person has challenged me to answer a few questions about Catholism, in an attempt to save me from the Catholic Church. I am happy to do so in the hope he learns something in the process.

The first question is: In 1John 1:7 it says the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Why do Catholics need indulgences and purgatory if this is so?

I was thinking I would need to explain the eternal and temporal consequences of sin, the treasury of merit and communion of the saints.

Does that sound right? Am I missing anything?

The short and pithy answer, if I may, is this: “Wisk detergent removes ring around the collar every time, except if you never open the bottle and pour it on the stain.” Yes, it is the blood of the Christ which cleanses us, but it must be applied. Some people are cleansed completely before death, but I would venture to guess that most of us need that extra wash cycle (purgatory) before entering Heaven.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Ditto Juno. The power of indulgences or purgatory flows from the sacrifice of Christ. No problem in that verse for a Catholic. I’d keep my answers short whenever possible.

 

[mab23]

catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgences

 

[Nan_S]

The first question is: In 1John 1:7 it says the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Why do Catholics need indulgences and purgatory if this is so?

The best defense is a good offense. For every answer you give you get to ask him a question.

Groundwork: Was he baptized? Was it a full-immersion baptism? <More than likely, yes.> So getting completely covered by the water, real earthly water and not just ethereal “spiritual” water was important, right?

Now your question: Being whatever non-Catholic religion he is, he probably doesn’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ in his communion, if he even has a communion service. So where does he get his “blood of Jesus” to cleanse him from sin? Is it just a spiritual warm fuzzy feeling? Why is it important to get fully immersed in the water, yet only receive the blood in a ethereal spiritual way? <Wellll… Jesus gave us water all around us, but His blood he took with him.> Oh really?

Being Catholic we have the Sacred Body and Precious Blood in the Eucharist. Real Presence of Christ, real food, real cleansing. What does he have?

If he says his communion IS the real blood of Jesus, ask him how that could be. Under what authority is the bread and wine transformed, other than wishing it to be so?

 

[steve_b]

A person has challenged me to answer a few questions about Catholism, in an attempt to save me from the Catholic Church. I am happy to do so in the hope he learns something in the process.

The first question is: In 1John 1:7 it says the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Why do Catholics need indulgences and purgatory if this is so?

It’s a conditional statement

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we do everything Jesus commands…THEN… He purifies us of all our sins.
a:

I was thinking I would need to explain the eternal and temporal consequences of sin, the treasury of merit and communion of the saints.

Does that sound right? Am I missing anything?

Later in his epistle, John in ch 5, gives more information about the forgiveness of sins

1 Jn 5:
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

There is clearly mortal and non mortal sin. Non mortal sin can be prayed about and God forgives…but John says that’s not so for mortal sin. Ask your friends, how Protestants get rid of mortal sin? Especially when they don’t even believe in mortal sin.

Re: Purgatory
1 Cor 3:
. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.* It will berevealed with fire, and the**fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 Ifwhat has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 **If *it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Paul’s points

• on “the Day” this happens only to a soul that is saved.
• This is not a process for a soul that is condemned…i.e. not saved
• After this process on “the Day” the soul is judged, and receives a reward based on what good remains after the process described is completed. The process as you can see, entails suffering and conditions…(if’s)
• and the soul that is saved, ultimately escapes, but only as through fire.

This is classic biblical language describing purification

For example

Mal 3:
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver.

Since “nothing unclean/impure can enter heaven” [Rev 21:27] then something has to happen to the soul between this life and heaven to purify the soul to enter heaven…correct?

 

[guanophore]

A person has challenged me to answer a few questions about Catholism, in an attempt to save me from the Catholic Church. I am happy to do so in the hope he learns something in the process.

The first question is: In 1John 1:7 it says the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Why do Catholics need indulgences and purgatory if this is so?

I was thinking I would need to explain the eternal and temporal consequences of sin, the treasury of merit and communion of the saints.

Does that sound right? Am I missing anything?

Yes, but it might be too complicated. Better to assure him that Catholics believe that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, then move on to something else.

But there are very good tracts here at CAF on these issues. You can also find helpful resources at scripturecatholic.com/purgatory_qa.html

 

[asd72]

It’s a conditional statement

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we do everything Jesus commands…THEN… He purifies us of all our sins.

Later in his epistle, John in ch 5, gives more information about the forgiveness of sins

1 Jn 5:
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

There is clearly mortal and non mortal sin. Non mortal sin can be prayed about and God forgives…but John says that’s not so for mortal sin. Ask your friends, how Protestants get rid of mortal sin? Especially when they don’t even believe in mortal sin.

Re: Purgatory
1 Cor 3:
. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.* It will berevealed with fire, and the**fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 Ifwhat has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 **If *it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Paul’s points

• on "the Day" this happens only to a soul that is saved.
• This is not a process for a soul that is condemned…i.e. not saved
• After this process on “the Day” the soul is judged, and receives a reward based on what good remains after the process described is completed. The process as you can see, entails suffering and conditions…(if’s)
• and the soul that is saved, ultimately escapes, but only as through fire.

This is classic biblical language describing purification

For example

Mal 3:
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver.

Since “nothing unclean/impure can enter heaven” [Rev 21:27] then something has to happen to the soul between this life and heaven to purify the soul to enter heaven…correct?

Brilliant! Thanks very much.

Thank you everyone else for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[pablope]

A person has challenged me to answer a few questions about Catholism, in an attempt to save me from the Catholic Church. I am happy to do so in the hope he learns something in the process.

The first question is: In 1John 1:7 it says the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Why do Catholics need indulgences and purgatory if this is so?

I was thinking I would need to explain the eternal and temporal consequences of sin, the treasury of merit and communion of the saints.

Does that sound right? Am I missing anything?

From Rev 7…14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You may to point here…in rev 7 passage…that those in heaven…they washed their robes white…not Christ who did the washing.

 

[guanophore]

From Rev 7…14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You may to point here…in rev 7 passage…that those in heaven…they washed their robes white…not Christ who did the washing.

Here are some other similar references:

2 Cor 7:1
7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and of spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God.

2 Tim 2:21
All who cleanse themselves of the things I have mentioned will become special utensils, dedicated and useful to the owner of the house, ready for every good work.

James 4:8
Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

I would not go so far as to say “it is not Christ who did the washing”, because He does also wash us, but the point you are making is accurate - we are obligated to work togehter with his grace in that washing.

No one is suggesting that is is possible for humans (apart from God’s grace) to wash or cleanse anything as clean as it needs to be for God, but it is incumbent upon us to work together with His grace for this cleansing to happen. Christians contaminated by Calvin’s theology have trouble with these scriptures because they contradict the monoergistic perspective.