Apologetic - Why Temporal Punishment?

[Joe5858]

you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult[f] a brother or sister,[g] you will be liable to the council; and if you say, ‘You fool,’ you will be liable to the hell[h] of fire. 23 So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother or sister* has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother or sister,[j] and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court[k] with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.*

Do you think this scripture could be Jesus using an example to re-enforce the point of loving your neighbor?

Do Catholics believe that every sin has a temporal punishment or that it is up to God whether there will be temporal punishment for a sin or not?

Along the lines of Jesus’s potentially teaching us to love our neighbor, do you think that the story of Zaccheus could also be taken this way? To me it reads Zaccheus chose to recompense his victims and when it was clear his heart had changed, Jesus said salvation had come to his house. Not that salvation was declared to his house, then he recompensed his victims.

I am not saying I disagree with the whole temporal punishment argument that is made in this thread, just curious what you guys think. Thanks.!

 

[JRKH]

Joe said:
Do you think this scripture could be Jesus using an example to re-enforce the point of loving your neighbor?

Yes. Because all of Jesus teaching…All of the Law and all of the prophets comes from the two great commandments of Love (See Mt 22:36-40)

Do Catholics believe that every sin has a temporal punishment or that it is up to God whether there will be temporal punishment for a sin or not?

I like to use the term “consequence” instead of punishment…but…whether one calls it punishment or consequence - Yes I believe there is always negative consequence to all sin. I also think that it is a bit more involved than just saying that God decides whether there will or won’t be punishment. Mostly I think it is built into the system.

Pressed for time right now…I’ll stop back by later…

Peace
James

 

[Gorgias]

Along the lines of Jesus’s potentially teaching us to love our neighbor, do you think that the story of Zaccheus could also be taken this way? To me it reads Zaccheus chose to recompense his victims and when it was clear his heart had changed, Jesus said salvation had come to his house. Not that salvation was declared to his house, then he recompensed his victims.

This is a question that often gets asked in Scripture scholarship. If we wish, we can ask, “when was Zaccheus saved?”

There’s a trap to that line of thinking, though: if he’s saved when he accepts Jesus’ answer and comes down out of the tree, then we’re good with this being an example of ‘temporal punishment due to sin’ – after all, having been saved (i.e., forgiven his sinfulness), he now promises to repair the damage he’d done.

On the other hand, if he’s saved after promising to repay, then we have a problem. Are you saying that Christ didn’t know Zaccheus had repented until he made his offer of compensation? That seems to limit Christ. On the other hand, if Christ knew, but withheld His declaration about ‘salvation’ until the offer was made, how can we distinguish this from an attempt to buy salvation through good works?

 

[ahs]

This is a question that often gets asked in Scripture scholarship. If we wish, we can ask, “when was Zaccheus saved?”

There’s a trap to that line of thinking, though: if he’s saved when he accepts Jesus’ answer and comes down out of the tree, then we’re good with this being an example of ‘temporal punishment due to sin’ – after all, having been saved (i.e., forgiven his sinfulness), he now promises to repair the damage he’d done.

On the other hand, if he’s saved after promising to repay, then we have a problem. Are you saying that Christ didn’t know Zaccheus had repented until he made his offer of compensation? That seems to limit Christ. On the other hand, if Christ knew, but withheld His declaration about ‘salvation’ until the offer was made, how can we distinguish this from an attempt to buy salvation through good works?

Very interesting. I had not thought of it in that light, but it makes sense.
Was Zaccheus saved when he “received” Christ (Lk 19:6), or after he promised to do some ‘work’, as it were, in making reparations for his sins (v.8)?

 

[JRKH]

Along the lines of Jesus’s potentially teaching us to love our neighbor, do you think that the story of Zaccheus could also be taken this way? To me it reads Zaccheus chose to recompense his victims and when it was clear his heart had changed, Jesus said salvation had come to his house. Not that salvation was declared to his house, then he recompensed his victims.

I tend to agree with this view. In each most cases of healing, there is first some declaration of faith. Then Jesus reply is along the lines of “your faith has healed you”.
Of course - others would say that it was only by grace that he was able to make the declaration that he did…Something I would not argue with - - but it starts to get a little like a “chicken-egg” discussion.

Peace
James

 

[Joe5858]

This is a question that often gets asked in Scripture scholarship. If we wish, we can ask, “when was Zaccheus saved?”

There’s a trap to that line of thinking, though: if he’s saved when he accepts Jesus’ answer and comes down out of the tree, then we’re good with this being an example of ‘temporal punishment due to sin’ – after all, having been saved (i.e., forgiven his sinfulness), he now promises to repair the damage he’d done.

On the other hand, if he’s saved after promising to repay, then we have a problem. Are you saying that Christ didn’t know Zaccheus had repented until he made his offer of compensation? That seems to limit Christ. On the other hand, if Christ knew, but withheld His declaration about ‘salvation’ until the offer was made, how can we distinguish this from an attempt to buy salvation through good works?

These are great points. thank you.