Apologetics for Unbelievers

[Anniegirl]

Hi Everyone,

Last night I was listening to the radio with my roommate and there was a bit about the Pope recently issued a document condemning adoption by gay couples. I agreed with him, but my roommate, who is not religious, was incensed and offended. She used the argument “It is better for a child to have a home with two parents than to be in the foster care system.” I think she is probably right here. The foster care system is really awful, but I don’t think that should be a reason to allow gay adoption.

Which leads me to my question. I was trying to write an quick apologetic to defend the Catholic teachings on gay rights/marriage/adoption. This is relatively easy to do (and has already been done a million times on the internet) if you start off assuming that everyone accepts certain religious precepts, but I can’t figure out how to make any sort of argument with atheists. I mostly just try to avoid these discussions, but sometimes they are inevitable, and avoiding them doesn’t make me much of a crusader for my new faith.

I was wondering if any of you either know of a good book/website to help me, or if you can help me here.

Most arguments for the Catholic view go to either the Bible or the catechism, or else make broad statements that I couldn’t even start to defend to an un-religious person. I’d appreciate any help. Thank you!

 

[Tmaque]

Hi Everyone,

Last night I was listening to the radio with my roommate and there was a bit about the Pope recently issued a document condemning adoption by gay couples. I agreed with him, but my roommate, who is not religious, was incensed and offended. She used the argument “It is better for a child to have a home with two parents than to be in the foster care system.” I think she is probably right here. The foster care system is really awful, but I don’t think that should be a reason to allow gay adoption.

Which leads me to my question. I was trying to write an quick apologetic to defend the Catholic teachings on gay rights/marriage/adoption. This is relatively easy to do (and has already been done a million times on the internet) if you start off assuming that everyone accepts certain religious precepts, but I can’t figure out how to make any sort of argument with atheists. I mostly just try to avoid these discussions, but sometimes they are inevitable, and avoiding them doesn’t make me much of a crusader for my new faith.

I was wondering if any of you either know of a good book/website to help me, or if you can help me here.

Most arguments for the Catholic view go to either the Bible or the catechism, or else make broad statements that I couldn’t even start to defend to an un-religious person. I’d appreciate any help. Thank you!

Most state child welfare agencies place all sorts of limitations on who can adopt children. Some are:

Age
Single parent
Income
Living arrangements

It could be argued that a sixty year old couple that wants to adopt would be better than foster care. Same goes for a polygamous family, or a single man, or a very poor yet healthy family. The point is there is an ideal adoptive family. Studies show that kids have the best chance with a married man and woman under 40 years old with a reasonable income. That’s the standard. If we change that standard for gay couples then we should have to change it for old couples, singles, etc, etc, etc.

 

[awalt]

I think hands down the greatest book for atheists is Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. He takes you from nothing to belief in Christ. He actually says at that point, you are (paraphrased) “in a big open room, and at that point it is up to you to investigate and pick the door to enter into next (meaning Catholicism, Methodist, etc. etc.)”. I found myself wishing I knew an atheist to give the book to!

It’s also a quick read. It came from a series of radio shows he did in England during WW II that were very popular.

I highly recommend it!

 

[ribozyme]

I do not know what would convince me…

Personally, I do not think any apologetic would convince me to be Catholic.

For example, when I learn about the injustices of the world such as immense poverty I get depressed and feel rather feeble.

I also hear about the sanctity of life espoused by Catholics, but when I hear this I wonder why would a God who believe that human life is sacred allows for such egregious suffering.

It seems that the problem of evil objection is irrefragable.

Returning to the topic, why do you think non-Catholics would be influenced by Catholic ideas? If you want to convince atheists, you have to play *their *game; invoke arguments by using utilitarian principles advocated by John Stuart Mill and Peter Singer.

 

[Mirdath]

Most arguments for the Catholic view go to either the Bible or the catechism, or else make broad statements that I couldn’t even start to defend to an un-religious person. I’d appreciate any help. Thank you!

Only ‘most’?

In order to accept teachings of the Church on particular issues of morality, it stands to reason that one must first accept the authority of the Church to make pronouncements on morality.

Some people try to argue for the existence of a ‘natural moral law’, but unlike the natural physical laws it claims to be sibling to, the natural moral law is neither empirically evident nor a law in the sense that it is constantly binding. Ultimately, it falls back on faith in a God who ordains morals – it’s useless for arguing ethics with anyone who doesn’t accept or questions that.

 

[dmelosi]

I think hands down the greatest book for atheists is Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. He takes you from nothing to belief in Christ. He actually says at that point, you are (paraphrased) “in a big open room, and at that point it is up to you to investigate and pick the door to enter into next (meaning Catholicism, Methodist, etc. etc.)”. I found myself wishing I knew an atheist to give the book to!

It’s also a quick read. It came from a series of radio shows he did in England during WW II that were very popular.

I highly recommend it!

Yes, a very good one to read.

 

[dmelosi]

I do not know what would convince me…

Personally, I do not think any apologetic would convince me to be Catholic.

For example, when I learn about the injustices of the world such as immense poverty I get depressed and feel rather feeble.

I also hear about the sanctity of life espoused by Catholics, but when I hear this I wonder why would a God who believe that human life is sacred allows for such egregious suffering.

It seems that the problem of evil objection is irrefragable.

Returning to the topic, why do you think non-Catholics would be influenced by Catholic ideas? If you want to convince atheists, you have to play *their *game; invoke arguments by using utilitarian principles advocated by John Stuart Mill and Peter Singer.

The Catholic faith teaches selflessness. I am sure not saying that all Catholics or other Christians live a selfless life, but selfless living or caring for others may be the most important teaching that Christ gave us to follow.

What does atheism teach about this? Where does selflessness rank in their teaching?

 

[Mirdath]

What does atheism teach about this? Where does selflessness rank in their teaching?

Atheism is the one-word answer ‘no’ to the question ‘do you believe God exists?’. What teachings does it have in the first place? It’s a theological stance, not an organized religion. There are no rites, rituals, sacraments, scriptures, or any of that.

Some atheists are selfless, generous, and giving. Others are not. Whether they are or not is not dependent on their atheism.

 

[dmelosi]

Atheism is the one-word answer ‘no’ to the question ‘do you believe God exists?’. What teachings does it have in the first place? It’s a theological stance, not an organized religion. There are no rites, rituals, sacraments, scriptures, or any of that.

Some atheists are selfless, generous, and giving. Others are not. Whether they are or not is not dependent on their atheism.

Thanks for your response, I did understand that atheists do not believe in God, but didn’t know if they had anything they followed or read as far as a guide, if people questioned them about it.

I see you are an agnostic…just my 2 cents…the reason I like the Catholic faith is that as you study what it truly teaches, it teaches that the greatest good is the most selfless and the worst bad is the most selfish.

If a person doesn’t have a guide to follow, each will form their own opinion on what is good and what is bad and it will greatly vary, what will be good for some will be bad for others.

 

[Mirdath]

Thanks for your response, I did understand that atheists do not believe in God, but didn’t know if they had anything they followed or read as far as a guide, if people questioned them about it.

There’s no ‘atheist Bible’ or anything like that. There are some organized groups following one philosophy or another (the Church of Satan being an entertaining example) but atheism as a whole is not a unified body like Catholicism.

If a person doesn’t have a guide to follow, each will form their own opinion on what is good and what is bad and it will greatly vary, what will be good for some will be bad for others.

You formed your own opinions on good and bad when you joined the Catholic Church – the opinion that the Church is correct.

 

[dmelosi]

There’s no ‘atheist Bible’ or anything like that. There are some organized groups following one philosophy or another (the Church of Satan being an entertaining example) but atheism as a whole is not a unified body like Catholicism.

You formed your own opinions on good and bad when you joined the Catholic Church – the opinion that the Church is correct.

I am a cradle Catholic, but did not study the faith for most of my life. The idea that the most selfless is the best and the most selfish is the worst is nothing that I have read that the church says, but one that as you study what the church teaches, it does teach just that.

If a person is guided by what makes the most sense for them, the teachings of the Catholic Church sure make the most sense in determining what is right and what is wrong.

 

[Mirdath]

I am a cradle Catholic, but did not study the faith for most of my life. The idea that the most selfless is the best and the most selfish is the worst is nothing that I have read that the church says, but one that as you study what the church teaches, it does teach just that.

Actually, that’s more utilitarian than anything: the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. It’s not an ethic to which the Church subscribes, given its inherently relative nature.

Cradle Catholic or convert, you have freely chosen to abide by the moral rules laid down by the Church – that’s ‘forming your opinion’ just as much as a non-believer deciding to base an opinion of good and evil on anything else.

If a person is guided by what makes the most sense for them, the teachings of the Catholic Church sure make the most sense in determining what is right and what is wrong.

If and only if one accepts that the Catholic Church has the authority to teach in the first place.

 

[dmelosi]

Actually, that’s more utilitarian than anything: the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. It’s not an ethic to which the Church subscribes, given its inherently relative nature.

Cradle Catholic or convert, you have freely chosen to abide by the moral rules laid down by the Church – that’s ‘forming your opinion’ just as much as a non-believer deciding to base an opinion of good and evil on anything else.

If and only if one accepts that the Catholic Church has the authority to teach in the first place.

It obviously is not utiltarianism in today’s society. It is the basic definition of good and evil and everything in between.

Don’t forget in my post I say the Catholic teaching makes the most sense to me…not blindly following something I disagree with.

 

[Mirdath]

It obviously is not utiltarianism in today’s society. It is the basic definition of good and evil and everything in between.

It’s pretty much textbook utilitarianism. ‘Do what is best for everyone’. What is best? That changes depending on the situation and on the affected parties; it can’t be an absolute moral code, and the Catholic Church is nothing if not morally absolutist (save for the one exception of mental reservation in lying).

Don’t forget in my post I say the Catholic teaching makes the most sense to me…not blindly following something I disagree with.

Actually you were speaking a lot more generally, saying ‘teachings of the Catholic Church sure make the most sense’. They make the most sense only for people who agree that the Church has any kind of authority to teach on such matters.

 

[dmelosi]

It’s pretty much textbook utilitarianism. ‘Do what is best for everyone’. What is best? That changes depending on the situation and on the affected parties; it can’t be an absolute moral code, and the Catholic Church is nothing if not morally absolutist (save for the one exception of mental reservation in lying).

Actually you were speaking a lot more generally, saying ‘teachings of the Catholic Church sure make the most sense’. They make the most sense only for people who agree that the Church has any kind of authority to teach on such matters.

What is best is not a black and white situation when it deals with several people at once, of course it could change based on the situation.

What specifically are you talking about the church being and morally absolutist about. Just a couple of examples.

Just curious how you determine what is good and what is bad?

 

[Mirdath]

What specifically are you talking about the church being and morally absolutist about. Just a couple of examples.

Let’s go with the classic example: abortion to save the life of the mother. Removal of a fallopian tube for an ectopic pregnancy is considered permissible under the principle of double effect, but out-and-out abortion (including simply clearing the tube in the same situation, which would greatly increase chances of bearing children later) is never allowed. I’ve seen at least one Catholic poster here go so far as to say that if his wife were in a situation where her choices were either abort or die, he’d tell his wife to suck it up and die.

Just curious how you determine what is good and what is bad?

I find ‘act always according to that maxim whereby you can will it becomes universal law’ a good general rule.

 

[dmelosi]

Let’s go with the classic example: abortion to save the life of the mother. Removal of a fallopian tube for an ectopic pregnancy is considered permissible under the principle of double effect, but out-and-out abortion (including simply clearing the tube in the same situation, which would greatly increase chances of bearing children later) is never allowed. I’ve seen at least one Catholic poster here go so far as to say that if his wife were in a situation where her choices were either abort or die, he’d tell his wife to suck it up and die.

I find ‘act always according to that maxim whereby you can will it becomes universal law’ a good general rule.

I should have added the question asking what you find the problem with in your example.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Most arguments for the Catholic view go to either the Bible or the catechism, or else make broad statements that I couldn’t even start to defend to an un-religious person. I’d appreciate any help. Thank you!

I tried *exactly *what you’re trying to do and it didn’t work…sorry. :console:

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

I think hands down the greatest book for atheists is Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. He takes you from nothing to belief in Christ. He actually says at that point, you are (paraphrased) “in a big open room, and at that point it is up to you to investigate and pick the door to enter into next (meaning Catholicism, Methodist, etc. etc.)”. I found myself wishing I knew an atheist to give the book to!

Already read it, and that was back when I was *trying *to be convinced!

Sorry you don’t know any atheists. It would sure spice up your debate-life!

 

[Mirdath]

I should have added the question asking what you find the problem with in your example.

I consider the unborn fetus a human being but not yet a human person or part of society, and as such the person of the mother is far more important.

Do you agree with the guy who said he’d tell his wife to, ah, grow a pair, figuratively speaking, and die rather than commit a sin which could be confessed and forgiven – even if the infant could not be saved anyway? It was easy for him to say that: he didn’t have anything on the line.