Apologetics help, please! Mary's "Omnipotence'

[justasking4]

We see clearly in Scripture that God used Mary to come into the world. He could have just appeared in physical form, but He chose to come through Her.
He sent His disciples to spread His word rather than just appearing to all people of the wolrd and delivering the message Himself.
He sent angels to deliver His word.
Obviously He uses other agents.

Good point. However you still have not shown that Mary today is in heaven and can answer thousands if not millions of prayers for example.

 

[justasking4]

Absolutely.

You seem to be under the impression that being a member of the Catholic Church makes one infallible. You also seem not to have a clear definition of what infallability is. The Church is not perfect. She is made up of sinners like me, all of whom have free will.

What i’m referring to is the claim that the catholic church is always guided by the HS.

The Church is guarded against teaching error in the areas of Faith and Morals. That is how She’s guided by the Holy Spirit.

Where specifically did Jesus promise this? I’m not aware of any such promise that He made to the church. I am aware that He did warn about false teachers who would come into the church itself and deceive many. Since this is true, it would not make sense then to have a promise that the church could never teach error.

Jesus never said “I will build My Church and everyone will be perfect and never commit a wrong act”.

 

[San_Patricio]

I would think that they would agree on fundamental doctrines and the passages used to interpret those doctrines.

That may well be, but you’d have to ask them. I live in an area that is predominantly Catholic and has a relatively small population (approx. 67,000 people), yet there are over 30 differenttypes of Protestant chuches in this county. There are 5 different* types*** of Baptist church. Why do you suppose that is if they agree on doctrine and scripture?

 

[San_Patricio]

Good point. However you still have not shown that Mary today is in heaven and can answer thousands if not millions of prayers for example.

That wasn’t your question. Your question was: how do I know God used “agents”?

 

[San_Patricio]

justasking4:
Again, you are confusing what the Church does with what members of the Church does. Response to post #141
Why don’t you address your questions outside of my quotes so I can better respond to you?

 

[justasking4]

That may well be, but you’d have to ask them. I live in an area that is predominantly Catholic and has a relatively small population (approx. 67,000 people), yet there are over 30 differenttypes of Protestant chuches in this county. There are 5 different* types*** of Baptist church. Why do you suppose that is if they agree on doctrine and scripture?

I think there are a couple of ways to look at this issue. Take a 3-4 doctrines and see what they teach about them. Would they agree for example that;
1- Christ is God in the flesh?
2- Did Christ die for our sins?
3- Are the scriptures the Word of God?
4- Is man fallen?

I would think you would find common agreement on these issues

 

[justasking4]

Again, you are confusing what the Church does with what members of the Church does. Response to post #141
Why don’t you address your questions outside of my quotes so I can better respond to you?

i haven’t figured out how to do that.

The members i.e. those who are the magisterium and pope are the ones supposedly the HS works through. They have in past have been responsilble for some of the evil that i have mentioned.

 

[San_Patricio]

I think there are a couple of ways to look at this issue. Take a 3-4 doctrines and see what they teach about them. Would they agree for example that;
1- Christ is God in the flesh?
2- Did Christ die for our sins?
3- Are the scriptures the Word of God?
4- Is man fallen?

I would think you would find common agreement on these issues

Probably you would, but I’m not a Baptist or Evangelical and I’m not up on all of their teachings, so I couldn’t guarantee it. Look, if you want to discuss or debate Catholicism I’d be more than happy to, but let’s stick to one topic at a time (for your sake as well as mine). If you keep jumping around all over I’m going to ignore you. Okay?

 

[San_Patricio]

i haven’t figured out how to do that. You just did. Just move the quotation boxes where you want them.

The members i.e. those who are the magisterium and pope are the ones supposedly the HS works through. They have in past have been responsilble for some of the evil that i have mentioned.

 

[GoldenArrow]

I’m being lazy and have not read the first three pages.

I have two things to say:

First, the Saints are not Infallible. In these matters, we should always turn to the Deposit of Faith, which is found in the Infallible Dogmas. Mary is not Omnipotent because she is not God. Mary is a creature, and therefore, she does not possess the Divine Attribute of Omnipotence.

Secondly, Jesus Christ is the only human who possesses Divine Omnipotence because He is God made Man. 100% God, 100% Man. His humanity possesses Grace in a substantial and infinite manner, unlike the rest of us who possess the Indwelling of the Trinity in an unsubstantial and accidental manner. Mary is a creature. She does not possess the Indwelled Trinity in the same way that her Son does. That is, Jesus has a Divine Will and a Human Will that are united in one Hypostatis but separate in mode of action, etc…

Learning the dogmas concerning the Hypostatic Union would be helpful in doing Apologetics in this subject.

Thirdly, these statements made by the Saints regarding Mary’s “omnipotence” appear heretical if read literally. If read in a figurative manner, these statements make more theological sense. Perhaps one could say Mary has omnipotence with a little “o,” not a capital “O,” in the sense that Mary’s human will (she does not have a Divine Will) is perfectly conformed to God’s Will. She always does His Will perfectly, and so therefore, anything she requests of God will be granted. One can say she has power or omnipotence over the Trinity that she has attained through created GRACE, through the merits of Jesus Christ. She has created omnipotence with a little “o” that has been acquired through the foreseen merits of her Divine Son.

God Bless!

Thirdly,

 

[mikeledes]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread. All I can say is that Liguori’s book is not an infallible document and He is not a Pope making an infallible proclamation. He obviously had a deep love for Mary and may have been a bit overzealous in his choice of words. But I do not believe he meant to say that Mary is an Omnipotent being. The idea I believe he was trying to convey was the power of her prayers. He may have not chosen the right words to convey this message.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[justasking4]

I’m being lazy and have not read the first three pages.

I have two things to say:

First, the Saints are not Infallible. In these matters, we should always turn to the Deposit of Faith, which is found in the Infallible Dogmas. Mary is not Omnipotent because she is not God. Mary is a creature, and therefore, she does not possess the Divine Attribute of Omnipotence.

Secondly, Jesus Christ is the only human who possesses Divine Omnipotence because He is God made Man. 100% God, 100% Man. His humanity possesses Grace in a substantial and infinite manner, unlike the rest of us who possess the Indwelling of the Trinity in an unsubstantial and accidental manner. Mary is a creature. She does not possess the Indwelled Trinity in the same way that her Son does. That is, Jesus has a Divine Will and a Human Will that are united in one Hypostatis but separate in mode of action, etc…

Learning the dogmas concerning the Hypostatic Union would be helpful in doing Apologetics in this subject.

Thirdly, these statements made by the Saints regarding Mary’s “omnipotence” appear heretical if read literally. If read in a figurative manner, these statements make more theological sense. Perhaps one could say Mary has omnipotence with a little “o,” not a capital “O,” in the sense that Mary’s human will (she does not have a Divine Will) is perfectly conformed to God’s Will. She always does His Will perfectly, and so therefore, anything she requests of God will be granted. One can say she has power or omnipotence over the Trinity that she has attained through created GRACE, through the merits of Jesus Christ. She has created omnipotence with a little “o” that has been acquired through the foreseen merits of her Divine Son.

God Bless!

Thirdly,

The problem with your thinking here is that there is no proof for this. Its not in scripure nor any of the early fathers that i’m aware of. It also will not do with saying that she has a “lttle o” for omnipotence. Either she is possesses omnipotence or she does not.

 

[justasking4]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread. All I can say is that Liguori’s book is not an infallible document and He is not a Pope making an infallible proclamation. He obviously had a deep love for Mary and may have been a bit overzealous in his choice of words. But I do not believe he meant to say that Mary is an Omnipotent being. The idea I believe he was trying to convey was the power of her prayers. He may have not chosen the right words to convey this message.

God Bless,
Michael

Is not Ligori a saint and a doctor of-in the church? Does not the catholic church endorse this work as something for catholics to read and practice in their lives?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Is not Ligori a saint and a doctor of-in the church? Does not the catholic church endorse this work as something for catholics to read and practice in their lives?

Yes he is a saint, and no, his work is not considered by the Church to be infallible.

 

[bones_IV]

Do you a scripture refeerence for this?

It is not upon the scriptures that I based this. So what’s your point?

 

[justasking4]

It is not upon the scriptures that I based this. So what’s your point?

The point is that not all that the catholic church teaches cannot be found in scripture. I have talked to so many catholics who think that all there doctrines are based on scripture when in some cases they are not.
If a doctrine is not based on scripture is it then binding?

 

[Mannyfit75]

The point is that not all that the catholic church teaches cannot be found in scripture. I have talked to so many catholics who think that all there doctrines are based on scripture when in some cases they are not.
If a doctrine is not based on scripture is it then binding?

It’s oral tradition that Catholic Church teaches, the unwritten word of God. The Bible itself is the written word of God and the Catholic Church believe in Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

Both are highly important in the Church. The Bible itself does not claim to teached that all teachings are found in scripture. In fact, the Bible no were condemn abortion (find a word abortion in the Bible). The only non-Biblical source that condemns abortion is the Didache, an early Christian Catechism of Instructions.

You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

The Bible itself said that the Church must have authority. If it doesn’t, then the Bible has no authority since it was the Church who compelled a list of canons of the Bible in Council of Rome (382 A.D), Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the New Testament books in their present number and order; Council of Hippo, the Council of Hippo, which began “arguing it out.” Canon proposed by Bishop Athanasius, and Council of Carthage, The Council of Carthage, which refined the canon for the Western Church, sending it back to Pope Innocent for ratification. In the East, the canonical process was hampered by a number of schisms (esp. within the Church of Antioch).

Protestant Churches say that the Church has no authority.

 

[GoldenArrow]

Originally posted by Just Asking 4: The problem with your thinking here is that there is no proof for this. Its not in scripure nor any of the early fathers that i’m aware of. It also will not do with saying that she has a “lttle o” for omnipotence. Either she is possesses omnipotence or she does not.

You are correct. There is no proof for this.

Let me reword my explanation of the little “o.” Think of Mary being a reflection of God, as in a Mirror. We are all made in God’s image and likeness. This applies to us as it applies to Mary. So the “little o” omnipotence is the mirror reflection of God’s Omnipotence.

It is not Omnipotence Itself. It is merely the reflection of the sharing in God’s Divinity that we all possess through Grace. Mary always does the Will of God. She is perfectly conformed to His Will.

Now, think of the mirror as a human soul. The mirror of most of us is like the mirrors found in Gas station bathrooms. We’ve got cracks, defects, distortions. Mary’s mirror, on the other hand is flawless. It is the most perfect mirror ever made (aside from Christ).

I say Mary has omnipotence with a little “o” because she is a perfect reflection of the Divinity created through Grace.

But you are correct. She does not have Omnipotence with a big “o.”

What is the difference between Onmipotence and omnipotence? Omnipotence means that God can send an entire city into the fires of hell with one single Word; omnipotence means Mary can turn to God and with the resemblance her soul has to the soul of her Divine Son, Jesus, she can intercede for the sinful city and can overwhelm God with her tears so that He will instead show Mercy and give the inhabitants of the sinful city more time to repent. This is the material difference, in my mind, between Omnipotence and omnipotence.

Omnipotence with a big “O” is an active power.

Whereas, omnipotence with a little “o” is begging and pleading that is so sincere and pure that God’s heart is moved to concede to the will of his perfect creature, Mary.

Think of it this way. You get mad and decide to go out an beat up a man who has insulted your wife. Suddenly, standing in front of you, you see your little three-year old girl, crying, begging you not to go, begging you to forgive him, begging you to have mercy and to find another way. Would your heart not be moved by such a display of purity and suffering like that of a little child?

That’s the material difference.

Omnipotence is Divine Power; “omnipotence” is the power possessed by a little suffering child. In other words, “omnipotence” is perfect humility.

God Bless!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread. All I can say is that Liguori’s book is not an infallible document and He is not a Pope making an infallible proclamation. He obviously had a deep love for Mary and may have been a bit overzealous in his choice of words. But I do not believe he meant to say that Mary is an Omnipotent being. The idea I believe he was trying to convey was the power of her prayers. He may have not chosen the right words to convey this message.

God Bless,
Michael

It does contain the nihil obistat impramtur which as I understand means the following…

The Church, given teaching authority by Christ and as the conduit for fullness of Truth on this earth, has the obligation to preserve Her sheep from deviations from the Truth and to to guarantee them the “objective possibility of professing the true faith without error” (Catechism, No. 890). Because of this, the Bishops will look at books published by Catholics on Catholic matters in their dioceses, giving them their “okay” if nothing therein is found to be contrary to the Faith (relevant Canon Law: “Title IV: The Means of Social Communication,” ¶ 822-832)

catholictradition.org/Mary/glories6.htm

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You are correct. There is no proof for this.

Let me reword my explanation of the little “o.” Think of Mary being a reflection of God, as in a Mirror. We are all made in God’s image and likeness. This applies to us as it applies to Mary. So the “little o” omnipotence is the mirror reflection of God’s Omnipotence.

It is not Omnipotence Itself. It is merely the reflection of the sharing in God’s Divinity that we all possess through Grace. Mary always does the Will of God. She is perfectly conformed to His Will.

Now, think of the mirror as a human soul. The mirror of most of us is like the mirrors found in Gas station bathrooms. We’ve got cracks, defects, distortions. Mary’s mirror, on the other hand is flawless. It is the most perfect mirror ever made (aside from Christ).

I say Mary has omnipotence with a little “o” because she is a perfect reflection of the Divinity created through Grace.

But you are correct. She does not have Omnipotence with a big “o.”

What is the difference between Onmipotence and omnipotence? Omnipotence means that God can send an entire city into the fires of hell with one single Word; omnipotence means Mary can turn to God and with the resemblance her soul has to the soul of her Divine Son, Jesus, she can intercede for the sinful city and can overwhelm God with her tears so that He will instead show Mercy and give the inhabitants of the sinful city more time to repent. This is the material difference, in my mind, between Omnipotence and omnipotence.

Omnipotence with a big “O” is an active power.

Whereas, omnipotence with a little “o” is begging and pleading that is so sincere and pure that God’s heart is moved to concede to the will of his perfect creature, Mary.

Think of it this way. You get mad and decide to go out an beat up a man who has insulted your wife. Suddenly, standing in front of you, you see your little three-year old girl, crying, begging you not to go, begging you to forgive him, begging you to have mercy and to find another way. Would your heart not be moved by such a display of purity and suffering like that of a little child?

That’s the material difference.

Omnipotence is Divine Power; “omnipotence” is the power possessed by a little suffering child. In other words, “omnipotence” is perfect humility.

God Bless!

Gimme a break omnipotence means omnipotence, quit being a controvertist.