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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Hi Bene, once we reach heaven, can we sin?
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bene7
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
Blessings,
Bene
The issue is not sinning, but when any creature is finally in the presence of God will any creature possess incommunicable, divine attributes such as omnipotence, omniscience or omnipresence?
Blessings,
Bene
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javelin
Guest
Logical reasoning can make the leap of saying Mary is omnipotent fairly easily:
In an earthly sense, people’s wills often conflict, so the general’s exercise of his authority is only efficacious when it is in harmony with the desires of the Commander in Chief. In our spiritual reality, however, since Mary is Blessed in Heaven, her will and the will of God are never opposed. Her will is not capable of being complete as God’s is (I don’t think), but it is never in contrast to His will. Think of a Venn Diagram where Mary’s will is a small circle completely contained by the immensely huge circle of God’s Will.
So, since everything she asks for is in accordance with God’s will (unlike us), and since she has been given the fullness of Grace and a role that no one else can aspire to (Mother of God), everything she asks of God is given.
Thus we can reconcile this concept of Mary’s “omnipotence”.
I say “reconcile” because it is certainly not a direct proof from Revelation, but it is not contrary to Revelation either, and has enough merit to be considered.
Peace,
javelin
- God is omnipotent – anything He desires or wills will come to be.
- Jesus is God
- Jesus cannot sin
- Jesus must obey His mother (or that would be sin). Better positively stated: He answers her requests because He loves her so completely.
- Therefore, anything Mark asks of Jesus will be granted. Since Jesus can do anything, Mary can therefore have anything she requests come to be, through her Son’s power.
- The best word to describe someone whom anything they wish for/ask for is granted is “omnipotent”.
In an earthly sense, people’s wills often conflict, so the general’s exercise of his authority is only efficacious when it is in harmony with the desires of the Commander in Chief. In our spiritual reality, however, since Mary is Blessed in Heaven, her will and the will of God are never opposed. Her will is not capable of being complete as God’s is (I don’t think), but it is never in contrast to His will. Think of a Venn Diagram where Mary’s will is a small circle completely contained by the immensely huge circle of God’s Will.
So, since everything she asks for is in accordance with God’s will (unlike us), and since she has been given the fullness of Grace and a role that no one else can aspire to (Mother of God), everything she asks of God is given.
Thus we can reconcile this concept of Mary’s “omnipotence”.
I say “reconcile” because it is certainly not a direct proof from Revelation, but it is not contrary to Revelation either, and has enough merit to be considered.
Peace,
javelin
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javelin
Guest
This was well stated – thank you rjs1
Peace,
javelin
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
javelin, was Jesus sinning when he refused to come home?
where does it say, that saying no to one’s mother is a sin?
one can say no, and not be disrespecting one’s mother.
where does it say, that saying no to one’s mother is a sin?
one can say no, and not be disrespecting one’s mother.
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scylla
Guest
Why are you even discussing comments Saints have made. They are not infallible, and must be understood within the context of the Churches understanding of the faith.
This must be stressed or else once you resolve this discussion they have now have an understanding it is ok to take every comment made by Catholics from the Pope to everyday dissenters and use that to attack the true faith.
If they do think a comment places Mary above God then tell them that Catholic understanding of the faith never places Mary above God. We must defend what Catholicism really is and not get distracted with strawmen.
God Bless
Scylla
This must be stressed or else once you resolve this discussion they have now have an understanding it is ok to take every comment made by Catholics from the Pope to everyday dissenters and use that to attack the true faith.
If they do think a comment places Mary above God then tell them that Catholic understanding of the faith never places Mary above God. We must defend what Catholicism really is and not get distracted with strawmen.
God Bless
Scylla
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tdandh26
Guest
St. Louis de Monfort said, something to the affect of “I affirm with the rest of the Church that compared to God, Mary is nothing, nah less than nothing. But, thing being as they are, if God chose to use this most beautiful creature to come to us, who am I to not use this same creature to go to my God.”
Read more in “True devotion to Mary”
Read more in “True devotion to Mary”
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bene7
Guest
Scylla, you make an excellent point. But you do realize that the origin of the teaching of Mary being assumed (bodily) into heaven and now reigning there as “Queen Mother” is not Scriptural, but the mind of mere men? Right? Oh one can appeal to Solomon elevating his mother to that position, but nothing of the sort is ever taught in Scripture about Jesus and Mary. It’s simply the assertion of men, non-Apostolic and totally absent of any divine source. It’s all “strawmen” anyway.
Blessings,
Bene
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Todd_Easton
Guest
There was no absolute necessity for Jesus to be born of a woman; Jesus said, “… for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.” (Luke 3:8) Mary was the mother of Jesus because God wanted not only a man but also the full and active participation of a woman in the redemption of mankind. Mankind fell through the sin of both a man and a woman, Adam and Eve, and God wanted to restore Mankind in a similar manner through the obedience of a man and a woman, Jesus and Mary. Not that Jesus and Mary are equals, by any means. Jesus is God and human, whereas Mary is only human. Nevertheless, each in their own way contributed to the redemption of Mankind and each deserve to be recognized for their contributions. See Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyon for second-century Christian treatments of Mary as Eve’s antithesis.
It is not a pagan concept. The Lord predicted this mother-Son duo in the Sacred Scriptures:15I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." (Genesis 3:15) (note: the woman and her seed)
16 O LORD, I am thy servant; I am thy servant, the son of thy handmaid. Thou hast loosed my bonds. (Psalm 116:16; also see Psalm 86:17) (note: the Lord’s handmaid and her son, the Lord’s servant)
Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel. (Isaiah 7:14 as cited in Matthew 1:23) (note: virgin and son)
…For the LORD has created a new thing on the earth: a woman protects a man." (Jeremiah 31:21) (note: woman and man)
The Lord also speaks of this mother-Son duo through Simeon in Luke 2:34-35:
34and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against 35(and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.” (note: Mary and Jesus)(continued on next post)
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Todd_Easton
Guest
If Catholics highly exalt the creature Mary, it is well in accord with Scripture. Does not Scripture say of Mary: 48for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; 49for he who is mighty has done great things for me … 52he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree; (Luke 1:48-52) ?
Does not Scripture say of Mary:
1And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; (Revelation 12:1) ?
Who is this woman uniquely exalted in heaven? I say uniquely exalted because there is only one sun and one moon and she is clothed with the one and the other is under her feet. The woman is Mary, the mother of Jesus, the mother of the “male child, … who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, … [who] was caught up to God and to his throne” (Revelation 12:5), the “Word of God”, the “King of kings and Lord of lords”. (19:13-16)
What is Mary’s dominion? Revelation 12:17 says that all “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” are “her offspring.” And rightly so since it was by her “fiat” (Luke 1:38) that Jesus and, thus, salvation came into the world. Jesus Himself said that those who were faithful would be rewarded and Mary was certainly faithful: `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; (Matthew 25:21)
Does not Scripture say of Mary:
1And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; (Revelation 12:1) ?
Who is this woman uniquely exalted in heaven? I say uniquely exalted because there is only one sun and one moon and she is clothed with the one and the other is under her feet. The woman is Mary, the mother of Jesus, the mother of the “male child, … who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, … [who] was caught up to God and to his throne” (Revelation 12:5), the “Word of God”, the “King of kings and Lord of lords”. (19:13-16)
What is Mary’s dominion? Revelation 12:17 says that all “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” are “her offspring.” And rightly so since it was by her “fiat” (Luke 1:38) that Jesus and, thus, salvation came into the world. Jesus Himself said that those who were faithful would be rewarded and Mary was certainly faithful: `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; (Matthew 25:21)
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Redbandito
Guest
Bene, you are better than this. At least try to see it from the Catholic perspective. The “strawmen” argument is not on the Catholic side here. You know full well that Catholics teach that divine revelation comes to us both “orally” and “written” (2 Thess 2:15). It is dishonest to claim, as you have, that Catholics simply follow “the assertion of men”. Now, if you want to argue sola scriptura, or authority, start another thread. But, this post is a red herring, and completely unfair. Besides, Paul states VERY CLEARLY, “13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.” He ain’t talking about Scripture there buddy. So, Catholics relying on the Big “T” Tradition of the Church (i.e.Apostolic Tradition) to interpret what is at the very least implicitly revealed to us in Scripture, is not groundless. Whether you agree is a different story, but don’t act like Catholics don’t have a response to your baseless accusations.
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bene7
Guest
For the sake of argument, to petition someone who IS omnipotent does not then make the petitioner omnipotent - no matter how many petitions are granted. *Omnipotence * is an attribute which NO creature possesses.
Javelin, does Catholicism teach you that Mary herself fulfills the prayer request, or God?
Blessings,
Bene
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Redbandito
Guest
Catholicism teaches that Mary’s will is completely one with God’s, as all or our’s will be in Heaven. Thus, what petitions Mary requests, GOD grants. This is not out of necessity for God, but out of His manifest will.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Hi Bene, how many dimensions does heaven have? How many dimensions limitations does eternity have?
Back to my can one sin in heaven? why would they want to? When in heaven they have dumped their sin nature, but they remember what earth was like. They now know what the pure love of God is like. Why would one want to go back? Being in heaven they would know God more fully than we do on earth and be more inline with God’s desires and will. If they can not hear us, nor see us ( which is what I believe ) then it is possible that guardian angels when they go to heaven on a daily basis ( see sons of god in Job ) then it is possible that those angels tell those who have gone before us in heaven about our daily lives. And, thus they would pray. My point is, I think the prayer of anyone in heaven would be strong from this perspective. I do not think that those in heaven have the limits of time that we have on earth – thus the long line of angels waiting to speak to Mary is not subject to the rules of waiting in line on earth.
Back to my can one sin in heaven? why would they want to? When in heaven they have dumped their sin nature, but they remember what earth was like. They now know what the pure love of God is like. Why would one want to go back? Being in heaven they would know God more fully than we do on earth and be more inline with God’s desires and will. If they can not hear us, nor see us ( which is what I believe ) then it is possible that guardian angels when they go to heaven on a daily basis ( see sons of god in Job ) then it is possible that those angels tell those who have gone before us in heaven about our daily lives. And, thus they would pray. My point is, I think the prayer of anyone in heaven would be strong from this perspective. I do not think that those in heaven have the limits of time that we have on earth – thus the long line of angels waiting to speak to Mary is not subject to the rules of waiting in line on earth.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Besides, a prayer addressed to Mary does not neccessary have to be heard by Mary. The Guardian angel may ignore Mary completely and go to others in heaven about your needs.
But, Romans 8, makes all this mute, because the Holy Spirit himself prays for the saints.
But, Romans 8, makes all this mute, because the Holy Spirit himself prays for the saints.
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scylla
Guest
This is a question that needed to be addressed and as the Church Jesus Christ established the Church needed to address this belief.
Just like Peter declaring that circumcision is not required to become a Christian, which wasn’t argued when they held the first Church council.
As Catholics we are not bound by the invention of Sola Scriptura so we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and absolute truth. Not relative truth due to interpretation but a solid truth that frees us from reinventing the Christian faith every generation.
I do not base my beliefs on mere men which is what I would be doing by submitting myself to the invention of Sola Scriptura. Not to offend, but the arguement goes both ways the difference is the consistancy lies in the Catholic Church. Or else we would have to believe that truth changes.
God Bless
Scylla
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Eliza10
Guest
Thank you, there is a lot of good stuff here. I have not been able to compose my reply yet there, but when i do I’ll show my answer here. A lot of good discussion here! I’ll come back!
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bene7
Guest
Tod Easton:
According to the Spirit (who Authored the Scriptures), by ONE MAN’S act of rebellion (Adam) came divine condemnation (a legal term) and the reign of sin and death; and by ONE MAN’S act of obedience (Christ) came justification (a legal term), eternal life and the reign of GRACE (Rom. 5:21). Hence, as I stated in my previous post, Mary was the mother of Jesus because (as it is clearly revealed) the sole, divine purpose of God was that the Son be born into this world as a man, that as sin reigned (as king) in death through the one man, “even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life” through the one Man: “Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 5:21).
The woman giving birth in Rev. 12 is symbolic for the Messiah coming into this world through national Israel (cf. Jn. 4:22). The fulfillment of many O.T. prophecies. Based on ALL that is presented in the text, the woman can refer to Mary only by way of allusion, but not directly.
Blessings,
Bene
First of all it wasn’t Jesus who said it, it was John the Baptist. Second, it was not said in the context of redemption. What you stated was not only inaccurate contextually but theologically/soteriologically. John said it in the context of refuting their misguided confidence in their ancestral connection to Abraham, not as another way of divine redemption. In fact, what you’re saying renders the cross as simply an arbitrary way of divine salvation (just one of many other ways God could have chosen). And that the infinite holiness of God, which was offended/violated by man’s sin, need not have been propitiated (legally satisfied), which is what the shed blood of Christ on the cross accomplished (Rom. 3:25; cf. Heb. 9:22).
What you state here as to what “God wanted” is only a matter of personal opinion. In truth, however, Scripture itself does not confirm your asserted opinion. In Romans chapter five it is recorded by Paul, under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that “through one man” (not one man and one woman) “sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (i.e., in Adam, Romans 5:12-21). In these verses two Representative men, Adam and Christ, are contrasted: Condemnation and Death by Adam to all men in him; Justification and Life by Christ to all men in Him.
According to the Spirit (who Authored the Scriptures), by ONE MAN’S act of rebellion (Adam) came divine condemnation (a legal term) and the reign of sin and death; and by ONE MAN’S act of obedience (Christ) came justification (a legal term), eternal life and the reign of GRACE (Rom. 5:21). Hence, as I stated in my previous post, Mary was the mother of Jesus because (as it is clearly revealed) the sole, divine purpose of God was that the Son be born into this world as a man, that as sin reigned (as king) in death through the one man, “even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life” through the one Man: “Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 5:21).
I know about their typological antithesis but none say their teachings were actually taught and passed down from the Apostles, i.e., “Apostolic oral tradition.” Even Catholic “tradition” must be Apostolic. So in order to build doctrine on those writings one would have to treat them as sacred Scripture, or consider the writers infallible. I don’t think Catholicism recognizes either one.
This is a prophecy of the eventual virgin birth and the ultimate triumph of Messiah over Satan and His work of redemption through His death and shed blood on the cross. Not the formation of a Mother-Son religion. None of the other Scriptures you present speak of the development of a Mother-Son religion either.
If you read the text carefully you’ll see that John saw a great “sign in heaven.” It wasn’t the woman herself who was in heaven. In fact, it is the Son to whom she gives birth (not the woman) that is caught up to God and to His throne. The woman doesn’t follow Him into heaven but instead flees to the wilderness where she’s nourished by God for three and a half years (this scene is earthly, not heavenly). Based on an O.T. description found in Joseph’s dream, the woman is not Mary but national Israel. Jacob himself understood this description as meaning himself and his family, the progenitors of national Israel (see Gen. 37:9-11). It all fits in perfectly with the O.T. prophecies which speak of the persecution of Israel during the last half of the 70th week of Daniel (the dreaded “Day of the Lord”), the Tribulation period which is yet future. Jesus Himself makes reference to this future time of persecution for national Israel in Matt. 24:15-21.
The woman giving birth in Rev. 12 is symbolic for the Messiah coming into this world through national Israel (cf. Jn. 4:22). The fulfillment of many O.T. prophecies. Based on ALL that is presented in the text, the woman can refer to Mary only by way of allusion, but not directly.
Blessings,
Bene
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bene7
Guest
Actually, I believe Catholicism teaches that “tradition” must be Apostolic, that is, teachings orally taught by the Apostles but were not written. The Catholic Marian doctrines were formed after the Apostolic age, most long afterwards, and I have yet to see any kind of proof that these were actual teachings handed down straight from the Apostles.
Blessings,
Bene
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bene7
Guest
Proof? But just for the sake of argument, because a “saint’s” will is in accordance with God’s, does that render the saint him/herself omnipotent? Does he/she now possess the divine attribute of omnipotence? Does the saint (Mary) answer the prayer, or does God?
Blessings,]
Bene
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