Apologetics: How can you Apologise for abuse?

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vern humphrey:
No. In the Diocese of Little Rock the official charged with investigating such cases is not a priest – so no sacremental confession can take place. That same official is charged with warning the Bishop not to hear sacremental confession from the accused until the case has been investigated.

A Bishop cannot give his ring and staff to a “mental health professional.” The Bishop can only accept advice from them – and the Bishop chooses his advisers. He is therefore doubly responsible for receiving and following bad advice.

Let me point out we’re not talking about isolated instances – there were priests who repeatedly went through this process. The Bishops had ample evidence these people were not being cured.

And the fact that they passed some of them on without warning of their past crimes shows the Bishops in question were deliberately hiding this information.

No. You have a responsible layman investigate the case (to avoid the problem of the confessional). If the case appears to be factually true, you turn the evidence over to the temporal authorities for further investigation and prosecution.

No, you don’t trust them. As a Bishop, your duty is to your flock. You do not turn predators loose amongst the flock.

As I have pointed out, the confessional doesn’t enter into the case – because a wise Bishop would have these charges investigated by a layman and would refuse sacremental confession during the investigation.

Your comment on “hearsay” is completely wrong. Any citizen man bring a complaint. The victim swears to the complain in front of a magistrate, who issues a warrant on the basis of that sworn complaint. (Procedures vary from state to state – but this description would fit most states.)

The Bishops chose their advisors, including these "professionals.’ They cannot shift the responsibility to the advisers – and the evidence is that most Bishops who were concealing these sexual predators chose advisors who told them what they wanted to hear.

In addition, there were plenty of follow-on complaints. How many times does a man have to rape children before you begin to doubt the assurance that he is “cured?”

Indeed it should have. But when parents came to the Church, in many cases considerable pressure was brought to bear to prevent them from going to the police. They were told, “The Church will handle it.”

One should be removed from office for poor judgement – business managers and military officers always have that hanging over them.

When one makes repeated “poor judgements,” repeating the same mistake over and over. And when that mistake ruins young peoples’ lives and allows sexual predators to go on to new hunting grounds the person who made the judgement reaches a point where he can no longer claim, “I thought he was cured.”

And if he does it one more time after that point, he should go to prison.
one question has been asked why did bishops do what they did,and allow children to be abused,what most people are afraid of is that the Vatican was involved, why i say this is because if just one or two Dioceses covered up abuse, you could say these Bishops where working on there own, but most Dioceses in the U S A COVERED UP ABUSE ,ALL DIOCESES IN IRELAND DID THE SAME, ALL DIOCESES IN ENGLAND DID THE SAME, its well know some Bishops would have criminal records if some State Attorney’s in the U S A had not forced , some Diocese to hold an annual audit, the State Attorneys should have charged a number with perverting the cause of justice,yours michaelmac
 
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michaelmac:
one question has been asked why did bishops do what they did,and allow children to be abused,what most people are afraid of is that the Vatican was involved, why i say this is because if just one or two Dioceses covered up abuse, you could say these Bishops where working on there own, but most Dioceses in the U S A COVERED UP ABUSE ,ALL DIOCESES IN IRELAND DID THE SAME, ALL DIOCESES IN ENGLAND DID THE SAME, its well know some Bishops would have criminal records if some State Attorney’s in the U S A had not forced , some Diocese to hold an annual audit, the State Attorneys should have charged a number with perverting the cause of justice,yours michaelmac
It was almost predictable – in fact, Bishop McDonald of the Diocese of Little Rock can be said to have done just that, when he developed and put into effect his program to prevent child abuse (which is now used widely in Catholic dioceses throughout the United States.)

The coverup was essentially composed of three elements: First of all, a bureaucratic mindset (instead of a pastoral mindset.) The Bishops’ instinct was to protect the institution instead of protecting the flock.

Secondly, a naive belief that the “Christian” thing to do was to “cure” the offender. As I have said, Bishops chose mental health advisers who told them what they wanted to hear.

Finally, panic. Realizing it wasn’t working, I believe some Bishops tried to cover it all up – keep the lid on, don’t let anyone know what’s happening – because by then they were in too deep.
 
hi vern , theres going to be an inquiry into the Archdiocese of Dublin Ireland , people were told it covered the period from 1950 to 2005 , now they are doing it from 1975 to 2004 , many survivors are angry that many of those who abused children are not part of the inquiry ,and there actions will never be recorded, in the U S A its said there are 195 Dioceses out of these over 186 covered up abuse , this number was from the Catholic Bishops Comference of the U S A , from what my friends tell me they are still fighting the Catholic church in many Diocese in the U S A ,ABOUT STATUTE LAWS, YOURS MICHAELMAC
 
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michaelmac:
hi vern , theres going to be an inquiry into the Archdiocese of Dublin Ireland , people were told it covered the period from 1950 to 2005 , now they are doing it from 1975 to 2004 , many survivors are angry that many of those who abused children are not part of the inquiry ,and there actions will never be recorded, in the U S A its said there are 195 Dioceses out of these over 186 covered up abuse , this number was from the Catholic Bishops Comference of the U S A , from what my friends tell me they are still fighting the Catholic church in many Diocese in the U S A ,ABOUT STATUTE LAWS, YOURS MICHAELMAC
There is such a thing as the Statute of Limitations. Anyone who is a victim of any crime committed by anyone may run up against it – and can no longer bring charges or sue.

Justice has to be a balance between compensating the victims and a free-for-all scramble for money.
 
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assassin99:
There was a recent mention on the news of 700 or so more cases of credible child abuse committed by Catholic priests, mostly occurring several years ago, I think. Nary a mention of it anywhere on these forums, though (but plenty of posts against gay marriage and in favor of global warming, etc).

How can the enormous problem of priest sexual abuse be understood? What kind of church is the Catholic church, if a substantial minority of its priests are child abusers? Who would want to join the Catholic church? If this is really the One Truth Faith that Comes to Us from the Apostles, why are there so many perverts preaching its word? Every single instance of abuse I hear about makes me question my Catholic faith. And what about the abused? Surely the image of Father O’Malley touching their private parts understandably would discourage them from retaining their Catholic faith. If the abused no longer believe, are they going to hell? Why would God let his One True Faith mess up people like that?
Hello,

I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

Don’t forget that we are all sinners. If you think that maybe you are not as much of a sinner as another than you need to reevaluate your life.

Second remember that out of twelve apostles one of them betrayed Jesus One of them denied him and all but one left him in his time of trial.

Jesus came for the sinners. We are all sinners.

Don’t forget that Jesus promissed that he would never leave His Church.

And don’t forget who wants to cast doubt in your mind and lead you away from Jesus? Don’t let him.

Let all Catholics take up this cross together and offer up the pain of our people for those who are lost.

Monica
 
A couple of points:
  1. Apologetics does not mean “apologizing”. . .it means explaining. Not to nit pick, but the more we don’t make it clear right from the start what exactly “apologetics” IS, the more we are forced into a sort of “defensive” speaking, which already puts us at a disadvantage from the start. Not necessary.
  2. Human beings abuse, among a host of other sins. Human beings also do great acts of charity and other virtues. If you’re going to point fingers at some individuals for some of their actions, you also have to give credit where it’s due and acknowledge other individuals for some of THEIR actions. There are priests, sisters and laity of the 20th century who are martyrs; there are those who spent their lives in selfless service to the poor and sick. These people are JUST AS MUCH as part of the Catholic Church that the OP is blasting. Why don’t their actions carry weight with him, I wonder.
  3. One poster comments,
As a father I can’t even fathom sexually abusing a child, it’s inhuman
.
However, the vast majority of abused children are abused by their biological fathers. Inhuman and appalling, yes. Certainly I am in no way attempting to exculpate those priests who abused children --they should be punished–but I must point out that while those who were abused by priests are receiving, albeit belatedly, money, counseling, etc. . . the 90% plus majority of children abused by their fathers, mothers, known adults etc. are receiving NOTHING. At least the Catholic Church, unlike other institutions including SCHOOLS, or OTHER religious organizations, is doing something for the abused. Why aren’t we recognizing this, and why aren’t we going after the parental/non priest abusers with the same vigor? Where is the media on the subject of any abuse when it is not some individual belonging to the Catholic Church???
 
vern humphrey:
There is such a thing as the Statute of Limitations. Anyone who is a victim of any crime committed by anyone may run up against it – and can no longer bring charges or sue.

Justice has to be a balance between compensating the victims and a free-for-all scramble for money.
a story for you to ponder, some of my friends are suing the British Home Office ,for one very simple reason, they were sexualy abused in a young offenders institution ,at no time have they ever been offered any help , they were all abused as children in care homes , this is one reason they were targeted in where they sexualy abused, , some of my friends who were abused by priests ,have never been offered any help by the Diocese in which they were abused, in fact they were shuned and treated as lepers, one of my friends killed himself last year ,because he could no longer live with rejection yours michaelmac
 
Tantum ergo:
A couple of points:
  1. Apologetics does not mean “apologizing”. . .it means explaining. Not to nit pick, but the more we don’t make it clear right from the start what exactly “apologetics” IS, the more we are forced into a sort of “defensive” speaking, which already puts us at a disadvantage from the start. Not necessary.
  2. Human beings abuse, among a host of other sins. Human beings also do great acts of charity and other virtues. If you’re going to point fingers at some individuals for some of their actions, you also have to give credit where it’s due and acknowledge other individuals for some of THEIR actions. There are priests, sisters and laity of the 20th century who are martyrs; there are those who spent their lives in selfless service to the poor and sick. These people are JUST AS MUCH as part of the Catholic Church that the OP is blasting. Why don’t their actions carry weight with him, I wonder.
  3. One poster comments, .
    However, the vast majority of abused children are abused by their biological fathers. Inhuman and appalling, yes. Certainly I am in no way attempting to exculpate those priests who abused children --they should be punished–but I must point out that while those who were abused by priests are receiving, albeit belatedly, money, counseling, etc. . . the 90% plus majority of children abused by their fathers, mothers, known adults etc. are receiving NOTHING. At least the Catholic Church, unlike other institutions including SCHOOLS, or OTHER religious organizations, is doing something for the abused. Why aren’t we recognizing this, and why aren’t we going after the parental/non priest abusers with the same vigor? Where is the media on the subject of any abuse when it is not some individual belonging to the Catholic Church???
one reason we never tackle abuse properly , is because it costs to much money,and it does not make good reading and news papers cannot publicize the names if its in the home ,to protect the children identity yours michaelmac
 
*When people speak of the current crisis being a problem involving “pedophile priests,” they are addressing only a small portion of the situation. According to the John Jay study, most of the sexually offending priests are not true pedophiles. They are, instead, “ephebophiles,” who "exhibit these same fantasies, urges or behaviors towards post-pubescent youths."Generally, the John Jay study recognized that pedophilia can be defined as the molestation of children aged ten and younger. The National Review Board study defines **“ephebophilia” as “homosexual attraction to adolescent males,” ** *

catholicculture.net/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6506
 
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Tom:
Don’t confuse the faith of the Church with the weak humans who are in it.
:amen:

However, Jesus warned extremely strongly about those who would cause another to lose their faith.

St. Paul warned of tribulations and that those who persevere to the end will be saved.
 
Hi all, a very simple question , if you as an abused person believed the abuse was your own fault , like most victims do , would you believe the actions of the hirarchy of the church and those who sit in the pews, are helping you get over your abuse ,when the messege they send out by thier actions tell victims it is thier fault ,yours michaelmac
 
Responding to the original post:

I understand your discouragement. As Catholics we are taught that evil a mystery but that God only allows evil if He can bring a greater good from it. That’s why it’s so important to follow Him because if we think there is any other way, we lie to ourselves. St. Paul tells us that everything works to the good for those who love God.

Now, what good can come from the scandal and the widespread rejection of Church teachings? Perhaps some day Jesus will reward us for staying with His Church in a dark time. It is a chance to show our love for Jesus in just one small way. Perhaps this is one of the goods that God can bring from this. That the faithful will persevere despite the test.
 
Hi all, the words of Jesus Christ:

Matt 7: 15-20

[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.

if Christ says they be cut down and thrown on the fire , so who has the right to say for give them , if they hurt children yours michaelmac
 
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michaelmac:
if Christ says they be cut down and thrown on the fire , so who has the right to say for give them , if they hurt children yours michaelmac
‘If your brother sins against you seventy times and seventy times comes to you saying ‘I repent’ then forgive him’

‘Father forgive them, they know not what they do …’
 
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